The Lord of the Rings at 25: The Cultural Impact of the Trilogy

0:00 Well, hey there everybody. Welcome into the Film and Whiskey podcast. We are back with a special bonus episode. I First off, I haven't said come a long time. You haven't. Bonus episode. Yeah, baby, it has. Bonus. Bonus episode. Well, there it is. We're already going to get that copyright strike 10 seconds in, man. Listen, Brad, it is such an important bonus episode that I don't even know where to start. But I do know that we needed to bring along at least one more person, because today we are talking about the 25th anniversary of the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Bob, if it was just you and I, we would be a pair. But when we enter in that third person, we become. A fellowship.

0:49 A fellowship? That's right because we've brought along long time friend of the show, former host of the show, dare I say, Zach Johnston of Blackwood Distilling. Zach, how you doing today, man? I'm humbled and honored to be asked into this fellowship of the pod with you fine gentlemen, and I'm looking forward to our great journey to the slopes of Mount Doom and back again. You guys have to promise me that every single time we say Mordor. We say it like Agent says it in this movie. Oh yes, you must cross it to Mordor. You just. Hold the Rs every. Time.

1:29 Nico Morrison goes hard on that word, too. He does. Nico Mortenson makes a lot of big choices in these movies, guys, and we're going to talk about all of them, including the Scottish ones here in a little bit. So So listen guys, it is the 25th anniversary this year of the release of the first Lord of the Rings film, The Fellowship of the Ring. And to celebrate Peter Jackson was like, why not make some more money In order to do that, he put all three of the extended editions of the Lord of the Rings films back in theaters as a special Fathom event last weekend all through this week where we're recording and into this coming weekend. So if you have not had a chance to get out to the movie theater and catch one of the Lord of the Rings films in stunning 4K and with hours and hours of bonus footage that you aren't used to seeing in the theatrical cuts, this is your opportunity.

2:18 Brad, we are seizing the opportunity to talk about these movies. Now listen, we have. We've talked about the movies themselves before. We've done a review of every single one of the Lord of the Rings movies and at least one Hobbit movie. Have we done a Hobbit movie? Bob, I will not let us review a Hobbit movie. So we've done The Lord of the Rings. Here's here's Here's the. Reality Bob, There's one good scene in all The Hobbit movies, and I just want you to give it to me because you you're the only one who can do it justice. Is it is it the end of the second one? Yes. Oh, he's like I, I am fire. I am. And then it cuts in radial shot and he goes death boom, cut to black. Thank you, Smog.

3:02 That that is the only worthwhile 10 seconds of like another 8-9 hours of footage. Well, in any case, folks, we, we've done episode on all three Lord of the Rings movies. So if you'd like to hear our thoughts on the individual films, you can go back in the annals of film and whiskey and find those. Today we want to talk with Zach because Zach actually went to the theater this weekend and spent I, I believe he slept at the theater 'cause he watched all three films this weekend at the movie theater. And again, these are the extended versions. So we're talking three and a half, 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 hours long. Brad actually was compelled to go to the movie theater, which is a once a decade event for him now. He went on Sunday and saw the extended version of The Return of the King separately from both of these guys over the last couple months, I decided that it was time to introduce my oldest son to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And so I have just completed a re watch of the theatrical versions of all three of these.

4:04 And so the confluence of all these things tells me, Brad, that it is destiny that we are here today to talk about The Lord of the Rings. It absolutely is. I think my favorite thing when you told me that you were watching them with him was that you, like, skipped just a few specific parts. And the way you talked about like, yeah, you know, the opening of Return of the King. I just didn't need my like, 8-9 year old seeing Smeagol and Diego. Just I'm like, that is a weirdly intimately violent scene. Well, and then it's also the like the transformation, the slow transformation into Gollum. Where it kind of. Looks like if you shaved Jim Carrey's Grinch and then slathered him in like KY Jelly and had him crawl around. That's kind of what It's just so unsettling that I'm like, I don't know that he needs to see this at this young age. Yeah, he's, he's gonna walk around. Just going.

4:57 Go on, go on. You mean you don't want the extreme close up of him biting into a raw fish and slowly pulling it out as it tears apart? Dude. I forget this is the first clip. This is the first clip for social media. I'm just going to ask the audience, is Gollum just a lubed up Grinch? That's that's the conversation starter that we need to be having today, Brad. Now, the other elements of this is the fact that, you know, I saw this as a 11 and then 12 and then 13 year old when they came out. I God knows what my dad thought he was taking us to when I was 11 to see this, knowing that my parents are traditionally not like scary movie kind of people.

5:40 Not, not that it's necessarily scary, but you know, there there's some elements that could be scary for an 11 year old. Those black writers and fellowship are. Pretty. Terrifying. They're terrifying. I've come back to it as an adult many, many times. Zach, I'm jealous of you because you got to take your two high school age sons to this. And I'm like fascinated to hear how that affected you as the viewer to know that you're sharing it with your sons. But then also like how, how did they receive it? I, you know, they, they, they have grown up in an era of Instagram and Snapchat and all that. Like I really am curious to hear their response.

6:22 So curiously, because yeah, I saw all three in the cinema on the first run. And so I was 2223 and 24 when I first saw them. And then remember when the extended editions came out getting the DVDs and they became sort of the the crazy thing, especially for my sons, is these movies are just so permeated deep in our culture, so much so that like every single TV show that's been on TV for the last 20 years has been a precious joke with something. I mean, there's super cuts out there. You can get watch on YouTube, you know, you don't just walk, you know, like that meme is as as popular as Leo pointing at the TV to them. You know, like it's, it's one of those things where they finally, it kind of clicked in their minds like, oh, this is where all this originated from.

7:17 Like this is the the sort of source, if you will, just they're very quick reviews because we saw them Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night, shit like we were talking about it the whole drive home and we had like a 2025 minute drive home just like a maze. Like it was one of those things where it's like, wow, this is a maze like and we had watched it on our TV and we have like, you know, 72 inch good TV with sound. But there it was like, I get it. Like we just was a completely different experience on the big screen. 2 towers walked out. Like, Yep, that was a movie. That's always, that's all that was said. And then return to the King again, we talked about it for like the whole 25 minute ride home. Like I think for them, because you have to remember they've grown up with 9 Star Wars movies, 50 Marvel movies, 3 Avatar movies. Like they're used to that.

8:13 For me as a 22 year old, there were basically 2 trilogies. There was Back to the Future 123 and there was Godfather 123. And yes, there are other trilogies that existed. Obviously Terminator One, Terminator 2, and I think Terminator Three had already been out by that point, but like, there weren't film series with 20 plus entries in 2001, right? And so I feel for them. They look at it through a little more of, yeah, that was a filler movie, What's happening next? Because they've been primed their entire lives in that series of things. Where I remember at the time, and I don't know what your guys's experience was, but everybody was obsessed with Two Towers. Like they thought that was the greatest film of all time, the best of the the series.

8:59 Yeah, dude, 'cause it's playing rips, that's why. But I, I have a, a, a kind of conspiracy theory about that. I think they love the trailer with the Requiem for a Dream soundtrack. It is and the heated baggers of the movie. But you watch that three minute long original trailer that transitions into the Requiem for a Dream music. Yeah, 3 minute long trailer mind you, and it shows the entire movie. I can watch it. I've not. Seen the trailer since it was probably on TV. It's I remember seeing the trailer in the cinema if I don't remember watch movie for and that music came on because recruiting for a dream was massive as well and sort of especially cinephile circles and it was like people cheered during the trailer in the movie. Can I can I just say I missed the days when we cheered at the theaters because I the last.

9:54 Time like. I remember like a little bit of applause at the end of End Game when, you know, when it came out. The last time I remember having a legitimate, like the audience roared at the end of the film was Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. I mean, it was one of the, IT was one of my favorite theater experiences ever. Like for Frodo moment like I I vaguely remember that too. Like so like these movies for me, like represent coming into my own and becoming a a true adult. You're a a flowering young man. Just yeah, bursting forth in the bloom.

10:35 Guys, before we get too far down the rattle hole, let's zoom out a little bit. Let's set the stage. Because we could literally talk about these movies for hours. We got to put some structure around it. And in order to help us do that, we actually put a call out to some of our friends in the whiskey world to give us their takes on the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And we got phone calls and voicemail messages and emails from quite a few of them talking about a range of things from whether they prefer the extended version to the theatrical version to the Christian allegory in the in these movies. So there's a number of topics that we're going to hit on today. I do think that Zach kind of eased us into our first, like, the first major place we should go, which is talking about this as a trilogy and how the trilogy is telling one overarching narrative.

11:19 And this is different than even what Kevin Feige is able to kind of cobble together in the MCU. No matter how much they want to tell us that that was one planned arc. You can tell they were piercing it together as they went, which is very similar to, I mean, even if you throw back to like the original trilogy of Star Wars, you know, like George Lucas says now that he had that all planned out. And it's like, have you seen the poster of the original Star Wars and the hand placement of Leia on Luke's crotch? I don't think this was planned. So the, the interesting thing about Lord of the Rings is that it still stands as it's, it's this interesting bridge from classic Hollywood to what we have now. And I think that you can kind of hold it up against movies like Jaws, where it heralded a new era in terms of entertainment and for better and for worse, right? Like some of the things that the Lord of the Rings opens the floodgates for is the MCU and all of the the crappy stuff we got as a result of that.

12:19 But it's also like you can't you can't compare it directly to the MCU because I even remember, like when Return of the King came out, all the TV spots, there was a pull quote that was like, this movie takes its place alongside Lawrence of Arabia as one of the great epics. And it's like it does. It is a truly epic filmmaking feats that also happens to be in the vein of like a Spielbergian blockbuster. It's both of those things. And I don't think any movie had really accomplished that to that point. And you still have the the added layer of like this was a planned trilogy from the beginning where you were adapting it from an IP that had a beginning, middle and end and they were going to be released back-to-back to back. They were filmed at the same time. And so it is different than a Star Wars. It's like we had never had a film trilogy that was planned as a trilogy, not reliant on the success of any of the first two films to get to the third film.

13:16 And it was just prepackaged for us, ready to go. This was like a This was a monumental piece of movie making just from the production of it. The beauty of it and to your point, Bob, is we didn't and this is what Marvel ruin and Peter Jackson is kind of to blame for this because of The Hobbit. We didn't need a movie for every character to know who that character is. And we didn't need 10 or 15 minutes of back story about every character. Know who that character is, Bob, because Jackson was going by Lawrence of the rabies rules, Godfather rules all those viewers like no, this is who you'll see who the person is by just watching. Pay attention, watch, enjoy. I don't need a Legolas movie.

13:59 I don't need an Aragon movie. I don't need a Pippin movie. I don't need a Gandalf movie. Like it's like, no, here you go. And the Marvel end game Infinity war structure could have been the same. It could have been like Captain America, Winter Soldier, literally Infinity war end game done. And it's that's what's beautiful about going back and watching these films as they're yes, it is. What was it? 1213 hours? But it felt concise. Yeah, I think, I think that was for me just seeing Return of the King again, not having the time to go see all three. I felt like it moved. I like I was amazed at the pacing of a four hour and was it 424 hour and 25 minute movie?

14:47 I I didn't have to get up to pee. I didn't have to like I didn't ever like feel tired. I just sat there for four hours. And. It just truly, it just washes over you and the emotional beats are so well laid out that you have highs and then you're able to come down off of that and it gives you a little chance to breathe and move into the next big scene. I was just, I was just blown away by the pacing of the film that it could feel so energetic and yet allow you to just experience it throughout the whole thing. It it was so well done. One thing I want to ask, and I guess this, I'm going to throw this to Zach because Brad did not have the chance to rewatch them all in in close succession, which I did that with the theatricals and you just did it with the extended versions. If there is a nitpick that I can make about the trilogy as a whole, it's that tonally from film to film. But you know, at the beginning of Two Towers, there's like a lot of weird, like shaky Cam when they're walking through that mountain and it takes a minute to kind of figure out like this.

15:56 This has a different vibe than Fellowship did and it feels a little bit more cobbled together. And Two Towers are still maybe my favorite 1. So like, I'm not going to crap all over it. But watching them as a marathon, I think kind of pointed out a few of the cracks in the facade a little bit more than having to wait a full year in between, you know, even. And even then, I remember guys like I vividly remember we missed Fellowship in the theater. It probably came out sometime in the summer on on DVD. We watched it one time. My dad was like, I didn't like that that much. And then he kind of heard that there's this big battle in Two Towers. And so we went opening night to the theater. He'd already forgotten how much he didn't like the first one.

16:38 And I do think that there's something about like being able to space them out helps the the different vibe and flow of each one a little bit more than cramming them back-to-back. Zach, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Absolutely, and I think again, it's it's relative to our time, right? Like we're used to every movie like this having a big Helms deep like battle. I mean, they stuck it into like Alice in Wonderland and Snow White movies. They stuck it into every Marvel movie, every DC movie, every movie has this big. They stuck it. They made a Nutcracker movie live action that has a big. Battle like this. Like I forgot about that. They stick it into everything now and so the fatigue of two towers hits way harder now than I think it did then. I also find this isn't so much tone, but the development of CGI between 2002 and 2003 is shocking when you see them back. Gollum is in tree beard and the ants are hard to look at in two towers.

17:42 And then CGI had developed enough by two by the time they're working in 2003. I would guess Olum looks so much better in return. There isn't as much. There's no ants, so there's no and CGI. The tone of also the ants is really, I mean, there's very famously Peter Jackson did like little blurbs before each of the screenings. And it is very rambling. Like the the Return of the King one, I think is very sweet because he talks about people they've lost and their friendships and things like that. And that was actually nice. But during Two Towers, he talks about how, you know, they're talking about what they need to cut out, what they need to keep in. And he's like, oh, we got to keep in the ants because they're funny and them talking slowly and not doing anything quick is funny. And I thought it was funny.

18:30 So it needs to stay in. And I'm just like, I'd like to respectfully disagree. You know, I that's important for Eisenhart And that don't get me wrong, Like I understand the the value of that storyline, but the faithfulness is already stretched pretty thin there. And that's such it just grinds the movie to a halt. And you don't have that in Fellowship or Return. Those two movies click along at an amazing pace. I personally like Fellowship the most. I've always rewatched that the most. There's just something magically beautiful about that film. Again, a lot less CGI, of course, mostly practical. And it's just it it the the message I feel like is clearest in that film.

19:17 You know the but the tone going into I. I feel like the ants really dragged 2 towers down this time around. And the vision. Didn't help. That's a good segue to start talking about like kind of what's left in and what's left out and the the existence of extended editions, right? Exactly the existence of the extended editions as canonical things now too, and not just like a director's cut, like it's a real thing that's now been released in theaters. You have to reckon with that too. And I've always been of the opinion, Brad, that the only one of these 3 movies that is maybe improved by having an extended cut is Fellowship. And you know my my big take on Fellowship when we reviewed the theatrical version for the podcast was. It's it's the most Tolkany like it's, it's the most directly lifted from Tolkien.

20:09 It's the most of his language. They don't explain a lot. There's just people talking about Mithran deal and Ellen Deal and you're like, what are all these elvish words? I thought his name was Aragorn and he's Strider and they don't explain any of it. Why do people have multiple names? And so as like an American who likes to be spoon fed stuff, I, I'm really struggling with fellowship. And I do feel like some of the additional footage in Fellowship really helped kind of round out some of that for me when I was younger and needed that. Was your 10 minutes of back story you needed? It was my yeah, dude, it's like 30 more minutes of back story. This would be a great movie. And Peter Jackson listened to me. Flivered.

20:50 But then even even then you still have like very famously, they've cut out the character of Tom Bombadil completely from these films. And Brad, I, you know, I, I don't know if I've mentioned it yet in this recording. I've never read the Lord of the Rings books. I've, I've read half of Fellowship and that's it. I've read The Hobbit, I've read some other Tolkien, but like, I just never got into reading The Lord of the Rings. And so Tom Bombadil's importance is is nil to me. And it just seems like something that fans like to get kind of grumbly about, but. Sure. You know, there's, there's some real creative license that happens as the movies go on too. They they rearrange timelines because apparently, and you guys would know this better than me in the second book, you essentially get like the story of, you know, Aragorn and Gimli and Rohan and all of them in 1/2 of the book. And then it's like, let's completely shift perspectives and pick back up where we left off with Frodo and Sam technically.

21:45 Speaking technically speaking, Bob, it's actually six books that the publishers repackaged as three books. And so when you read them, it's actually book 1 and Book 2. It's contained in Fellowship. It's Fellowship 3 follows Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Mary and Pippen and the ends and all that. And then halfway through the book, you switch to book 4, which just follows Frodo, Sam and Gallo. And I like I've, I've read them probably five Times Now. Wow. And the the thing that I've actually enjoyed. I wouldn't recommend this for like a first time read through.

22:27 I, I think that there is a beauty to reading through Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn's half and wondering the whole time, like what's going on with Frodo. You can actually pretty much line it up where you could read a chapter from book 3, read a chapter from book 4, go back and forth and that actually makes for a really fun reading experience as well. I there's also. How they do the two towers, like they've got their AB and C story, like it's a sitcom and they cut back and forth to all three of them and you know some of them have less weight than the others. Like I will freely admit the tree beard plot, it's kind of crappy until you get the ants are going to war.

23:08 Dude, the last part of the Edison guard. It's so freaking good man. Everything about the last hour of the two towers is just pure cinematic perfection to me, culminating in Sam's speech. And again, this is where I get into like the the the license that they took because apparently, you know, all the stuff that happens in the third film with she Lob's layer is part of the two towers book or is at least happening concurrently with some of the events of two towers. And they're like, we can't we can't end the movie there for Frodo and Sam. And so they have to kind of finesse timelines. And who cares? Like, it's a movie, not a book. Like it's going to be formatted differently.

23:49 Hitchcock said it best. You read it once and you throw it away and make a movie. You know The Shining's not Stephen King's The Shining either, and who cares, right? I and like also, you don't have the same per you don't have the same real estate in a book that you do in a movie and vice versa. You have to move things in a different fashion in a film. That means you don't need to repeat yourself to prove the same point over and over and over again. It's like, well, and also, I mean, in the book, it takes Frodo 17 years to get ready to go because he's a Hobbit. OK, so the movie we don't have. Time for that? We don't have time for that, Yeah. You know, something like that, you know? This gets to the idea of like, is it faithful to the spirit of what you're adapting or does it have to be literal? And I think that now we've we've so developed and coddled and kowtowed to fandoms and what they expect in their Movies Now that it it's refreshing to me.

24:51 You know, Brad, my one of my favorite movies of all time is Jurassic Park. And the differences from the book to the screen in Jurassic Park could not be more drastic. I mean like entire characters survive that die in the book. Like, Michael Crichton has to completely retcon the the end of Jurassic Park just to write The Lost World because the movie's more popular than the book, and now he has to write to what Spielberg did on screen. Have you ever read Jaws? Jaws is a terrible book. Exactly. And there are. There's this whole subplot where Richard Dreyfuss is having an affair with Brody's wife. Throwing in Roy Schneider's wife, Yes. Yeah. Yes, guess what we would have made? That any movie right right hey guys you like you like wine like you know like so it's like so this. Has never been an issue for me and I I've always wondered if it's just because I've never read the book. So like all I really know and care about is the movies, but you can't evaluate a film and it's effectiveness as a work of art based on whatever it was adapted from. That is just a losing battle and it's never going to be a way of of really critiquing a movie.

26:01 I mean, I would say that there's, I would say that there's elements. If you are going to adapt something, you need to stay faithful to the overarching message or like the underlying threads of connectivity between what the author was intending for his audience to take away from the book. And I think with Tolkien and Jackson as the authors of these two experiences, I think that you see a through line in the film and in the literary versions of this. The the big thing for me is that the one place that Jackson kind of moves off base from where Tolkien is is how he portrays inner struggle for characters.

26:59 That's just something that, like, Tolkien didn't care about. You know, you were talking earlier, just a few seconds ago, about like, differences between the books. One of the absolute biggest ones that fans complain about is the change of Fair Amir. In the books, fair Amir is everything that Boromir wasn't. He sees the ring, and it's almost the same as Tom Bombadil seeing the ring. He just goes, yeah, that's the Ring of power. I'm not going to use it like I need to help you and he and there's no such he brings him back to Ozgilieth. That is all a creation of of Jackson and his writing team. And at like, I'm not a I'm not a super fan.

27:39 Who cares about that? I think it leads to one of the greatest speeches written in all three movies. That's not actually a Tolkien speech. There's a great video out there. I don't remember who made it. I'll, I'll try to look it up so I can properly credit them. But they basically talked about on YouTube, they talked about why the things that Jackson and his team created for the movies that were not in the book feel so Tolkien esque that they like. They still jive and groove with everything that Tolkien did right 'cause they really do use, they lift so much material straight from the books for the movies. And I, I think the core element is that even when they change a character like Fermere, who in the book is like a paragon of good and chooses the right thing from the very start into this character who is like struggling with his father's, you know, doubt in him and, and hatred of him and almost takes the ring because he's trying to get his dad's approval.

28:42 Like, that's very different from the book, but it still leads us to a place where he's confronted with the great evil of the world and chooses the good. And like, that is, for me, the story of Lord of the Rings. You have a few characters in the books and the movies that are like, you know, Sauron is pure evil, Saruman is pure evil. And then you have a few characters that are just like purely good, that are kind of on the edge of things. Like you have Elrond and Galadriel and even Gandalf to a point that they're just pure good. They're going to do good things. And then everybody in the middle between those two are faced with that pure good and pure evil. And it's like, who are they based on the actions they take in the light of such great darkness and light? And so I think that's why the movies like stick the landing so incredibly well is because they stay close to that even when they take some detours around what Tolkien was writing. And it's the beauty of that as well as its choice, right? Like, you know, the white wizard and the Gray wizard, they have the same access to the same information, but one of them chooses an easy path of power and hate and evil because it's easy.

30:01 He doesn't have to do any work. He's got orcs to do the work to to do all that. And one of them chooses path of the hardest path of having to put these huge responsibilities on his path. Yeah. And like, and the hard path is often the path at least to good. I mean, it's you guys know well the road to Hell's paved with good intention, guys. But I never even thought about that. Like the difference between the geographical shift of Gandalf. I mean, he's riding from the Shire down to Gondor up to Merkwood, all around these all three movies, and you see Solomon in one place. One spot. That I've never.

30:41 Thought that before, but even even when you look at Wormwood right, like he's taken the easy choice as well because he wants power. So he's become the acolyte of Solomon. But also at the end when Gandalf's in the extended edition of two towers, they or sorry have returned the king. They have his death properly because Christopher Lee was like, you're showing me get a death asshole. You're not cutting that. And but Wormwood chooses like Gandalf, like you can come back to Rohan. You can come back. You didn't be a person again. It's not going to be easy, but you can do it. And he chooses the easy path, which is to stab him, you know, Soren in the back or Solomon in the back, and, you know, end his life that way because that's the easy way out, right? And so you have and Theoden's another great example of this where it's like, you know, I'm talking about after he's not no longer possessed, where he's like, hey, like, you know, I'm trying to protect my people here. If you call on me all come, but I'm not going to go volunteer shit because I got stuff to do, man. And that's sort of I think what's so brilliant about that character is he steps up when asked, but also has the realism of I, you know, I got to make sure work. OK.

31:51 And that's, you know, the sort of beauty of the whole plane into like, like you said, Brad, like the multiple levels. And Bob, I have to ask you, how annoying is it when we're like talking about place names and people names and stuff like that, that? Because no, it's not annoying because I don't think you guys understand. Brad might. I was obsessed with these movies. Like I've watched every special feature on every DVD version of every movie. However, I don't know if our audience has. I do want to keep this a little bit like, what's the cultural impact of these movies? And I think, guys, we actually need to get to a break here. Before we get there. I want to play a clip from our first caller of the day. It's our friend David Thomas Tao who has a pretty hot taste about the extended editions of these movies.

32:35 One thing I really respect about the Lord of the Rings trilogy of movies is what they didn't put in the final cuts and the restraint that they showed in those edits. I've watched the director's cut of all three movies a couple times at this point, maybe several, and let me tell you, they're not as good. For example, the Mouth of Sauron is not in the version of the Return of the King that we saw in theaters, but it is in the director's cut. And it doesn't add. Anything to that film. In fact, it makes it worse. It's a little bit hokey, I think with a world as broad as that presented in the book trilogy, deciding what not to put in, like Tom Bombadil has a huge impact into the ultimate viewer experience, and I am so glad that Peter Jackson and the incredible team behind those movies showed the restraint they did.

33:34 All right, So thank you, David, for your scorching hot takes on the extended editions of these movies. I will say, guys, in general, you know, unless it's the type of movie that was ripped from a director's hands and chopped down by a studio against their will, director's cuts are always just like, they're fun vanity projects, but I never consider them to be like the canonical version of the film. You know, we talked about this with Amadeus, Brad. Like, yeah, the Amadeus director's cut is it's too long. And there's a reason that the theatrical version wins best picture. I feel the same way about Return of the King here. It's cool for fans like us to see this this bonus content and it's cool to see it as final footage and not just like half finished pre viz VFX.

34:18 But I do think in general for me, I agree with David that the theatrical cuts of these movies are the best versions of these films. I'd like to hear what you guys think, especially Zach since he just sat through 11 hours of them. Yeah, I prefer the theatrical cuts, but I do like some of the stuff that is put back in like I love Mary and have been finding like the the locker room and isn't garden. That's a wonderful little scene, right. Like stuff like that is great. I don't know if I agree about the mouth being like the problem with the mouth mouth being there is it's amazing, but it does repeat stuff we already know. And I think that's the key, right. Like I know you don't want to kill your babies. But also there, Bob, you said you watched all the special features.

35:01 They were always going to release an extended cut of these movies. Like that was from day one the plan. So they knew what was going to be in the extended cut and they could have maybe massaged a little bit more and not have some of the be repetitive because there's stuff in Fellowship that they act with Aragorn and when he when they're in Reverendale, that's pretty repetitive too. And so it's cool to see and it's cool to see on the big screen especially. But I kind of leaned towards what Dave's talked about. Yeah, I, I'm actually, I'm with them. I think for a lot of my life I would have been a part of the like Extended or Bust Bros group. At. Least the Snyder Cut.

35:41 That is something the world does not need to see. I think for me right now, I enjoy the theatricals more partially just because of time of life. Like I have a 5 year old and two year old and newborn. Like I don't have time for all that. If I'm going to watch these, it's going to be in 40 minute chunks and I'd rather it be like 340 minute chunks instead of five. And like that just sounds better to me. I do think that the theatrical cut to to agree with David, it really does show the restraint to cut out a lot of stuff you know is going to be really important. And the one that we haven't talked about yet that I think makes the most sense for this trilogy to cut out. And yet I really wish I could see in a theatrical edition is the the harrowing of the Shire at the end of Return of the King.

36:37 I just, Bob, if you were to ever read something, I actually would because you've watched the movies so intensely, I would actually tell you to just go read the last. It's like 3 or 4 chapters of Return of the Kings. It's, I think it's actually called the Scouring of the Scouring of the Book, right? Yeah. Which, and I, it's now all I know of it is to hear what Peter Jackson has said about it in, in the bonus content of these, which is like, you know, this is being written post war Britain, right? Like it's about how even when you're fighting for good and you think you can be an isolationist, like the war is going to come to you. And there is no idyllic sort of getaway that you can go to.

37:18 The, the, the tendrils of evil will touch everything, even if we try to save it, right? And it's, it's shocking and it's harrowing and it's a it's a good message to have. I'm glad they didn't do it in the movies. Like the frankly, I am like I it's these guys in terms of a dramatic arc, they deserve to go back home. They deserve to sleep with the waitress from the pub and have a bunch of little Hobbit kids and live happily ever after and drink beer. Like that's I'm sorry, but like and it is a more emotionally rewarding ending. They still do that in the book, but OK. So yeah, they they still do that in the book. Spoiler alert for a 70 years 80 year old book at this point.

38:01 Sure, sure. I I agree, I think the movie needed to end there. If you added that on it would be way too much. And I think for the purposes of the movie story, it makes sense. Like the Shire has existed as this. Did you remember the strawberries, Mr. Frodo? And like just that utterly crushing moment of like, I don't remember the Shire. I don't remember like you need that because it highlights the bitterness and beauty of Frodo's departure, that they get back to the Shire and he can remember it and it's still broken it still. Doesn't, Yeah. And so I think that fits the story. I think the beauty of the Scouring of the Shire is that in the books you see all sorts of characters who responds to evil. And the hobbits really are the most malleable of all the characters in the books because they come from the Garden of Eden, essentially.

39:01 And they are they, yeah, they they come out and they are Adam and Eve trying to figure out their way in a dark and evil world. And so at the end of the book, when evil has made itself present in their Garden of Eden, they know how to act and they've gained the skills of how to act, but they've all, they've all seen what to do in the face of evil. And so this is like everybody is stripped away. Gandalf isn't there, Aragor and Legolas, nobody's there. And they get to rise up and and defeat evil in their homeland. And it's, it's I freaking love the scouring of the Shire. It's such a perfect way to end the book. And they didn't need to do it in the movie. I mean, and also like it's again, it's the, it's the real estate you have, right?

39:51 Like the story is over when the ring is gone. Like yeah, period. Like in. Oh, contrary, my friend. We've got six more endings to go through in Return of the King. Here's the thing that didn't seem as bad this time around. Like watching them in succession, it all felt, yeah. Dude cuz you'd been there for five hours already. You're like what's another 40 at this point? I. I. Literally earned man. My wife texted me and was like hey just where you guys at? Like the girls are getting a little restless and I just sent her a GIF of you bow to no one cuz that's literally what had just happened on screen. And she goes, oh, great, so you got another 45 minutes. Speaking of having another 45 minutes, guys, it's time for us to take a quick break.

40:32 We will be back to continue talking about this trilogy and I will continue trying to keep these guys from getting too nerdy about the whole thing. We'll be back in a little bit on film and whiskey. All right, we're back talking about the Lord of the Rings trilogy guys, I want to zoom out a little bit. I want to talk about, you know, Brad, you, you mentioned time of life, place in life that we are now and how these movies hit differently. Zach, you're, you know, you've just introduced these to your boys. This is like. Can I can I ask was this their? Was this your boys first time seeing it or had they seen it at home with you previously? We watched Fellowship maybe last summer or maybe even less like a year ago. And so you guys know this about me, but for your listeners, I'm a very much you need to see it in the cinema guy when it comes to movies and I watch Fellowship. I love Fellowship, but I watched, I was like, I don't want their first experience of this to be here. I went up to be a full on cinema experience. So we didn't watch the other two, but they had seen Fellowship.

41:35 OK, there is something about watching these movies in your living room, which I mean, obviously pales in comparison to the theater. Because in the theater, I feel like you don't have to put in as much effort to try to get somebody to like something because they're just immersed. Like there's nowhere else to go. Whereas like if you're at home and you're trying to show your girlfriend or your wife or your kid or whatever something, or make them listen to something and you get a text message and your phone Dings loudly or, you know, the oven beeps or whatever the hell. Like any distraction is like damn it like you pulled me out of immersion here. And so like the Nasgol shriek crossing the theatre's sound system as it Oh yes, it's like an X, It's like the TIE fighters coming across the Falcon, like.

42:24 But you know what, Brett? I think I've mentioned this before too. There's something about when you're we, we've done it for the movie before. We're like, I'm rewatching a movie and I'm watching it with my wife for the first time because we have to review it on the show. And it's a movie I love deeply, but I haven't seen in a while. And I'm like, oh boy, oh boy, my wife's going to watch it with me. And so when when you're trying to make sure somebody loves something and you kind of get that feeling of like you're looking at them, you're looking at the movie, you're looking at them, you're looking. And, and you the first time they go like, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Like, and you start to see cracks in the movie where you didn't before because you're watching it for the first time through the lens of like, how is somebody who may not be vibing with this watching this movie? And so, you know, as we, as we get into different times in our lives and as we introduce this movie to people who may or may not like it as much as we do, I just kind of want to hear your guys's takes.

43:23 This is not the time yet for nitpicks. We can get into that. But like. What? What has resonated across the years for you? What's improved with time? Or like what are new wrinkles that you found with these movies? Life lessons, right? Like we were talking a little bit about choice that people make based on the information they have. And for me, having a 14 and 16 year old who whom are about to 1, go to a boarding school and the other to university and leave the house basically and start their journey in their adult lives, so to speak, even though they're teenagers. But you know what I mean? For me, it's that like, you know, empathy is #1 but also understanding and commonality and kindness and do and doing the right thing is hard.

44:11 Like it's OK to say you don't know. It's OK to say I was wrong. I did my best. And these movies exemplify that at every single turn, you know, And in return, you know, after after Frodo and Sam split up and it becomes obvious what column is doing. And, you know, when they come back together and, you know, the first thing Frodo musters is this heartfelt, tearful apology to Sam. And Sam's like, I know it's OK. And just the those little things like that where it's just like, you know, say you're wrong. It's OK. Like, if the person loves you, it's going to be OK. And that's the sort of beauty of life that I think people often have emotional disconnects with, you know, people telling them that that's OK, or, you know, you see that that's OK, but you don't maybe know that it's OK because you don't have someone there to support that point of view.

45:04 And these films, I think, hammer that home really well. And I think especially with Gandalf of, I don't know, like we're doing the best we can, you know, all the way through, you know, and also having immense guilt for, you know, the fact that other people are having hardships that he has helped them get into, but for a greater purpose, right? And so, you know, life is hard and doing the right thing is harder. And I think that's an important lesson to take out into life. And I'm glad that I have the access to culture points that show that lesson.

45:44 And we can talk about that lesson on the drive home and we can talk about it over dinner. And it comes up again, because, you know, what's beauty about having teenage sons who think about stuff is they'll bring this stuff up a couple days later sitting like on the couch or sitting walking the dog or something. And it creates a conversation, right? And so I'm not discounting any of this points with a younger child or when you're older or things like that. There's other value in in different times of your life, right? But for me, the beauty of seeing this now with my sons was like, I feel like they can really carry those lessons with them into their own lives having seen it at this point. I mean, one lesson that has hit me as we're talking is like in an age of Internet trolls and people, not just trolls, but like actually mean spirited cruelty, people who cruelty.

46:39 That's the perfect word. Like when you watch Aragorn interacting with the Mouth of Sauron. Sorry, sorry, David. The most beautiful thing is you learn what to do when it comes to cruel evil people online. Like cut them off, like Aragord just doesn't put up with it. After after a few minutes of talking to him, he just says, you know what? You're the mouth of Sauron. You're the mouth of pure evil. You're just going to pour cruelty and lies and deception. You're going to twist the truth to make it worse for us. And and you're just going to try to twist the knife into my heart further.

47:20 And there's no, you're not a friend who's giving me, you know, a hard reality check lovingly. It's like, no, this is just evil trying to worm its way into my head. What's the response to that? Cut it off. Get off get off Twitter. If a person is pouring malice and darkness into you, maybe a healthy boundary is in is is needed. And so, Zach, I'm with you, man. There. This movie, even a scene that is only in the extended edition, is chock full of like, really important life lessons that we can hold on to. And even talking about there's always a path back, like whether you're Theoden, who's being possessed, Yeah, but still making decisions possessed, like there's still a path back. Even Wormwood, Gandalf tries to get him down his path back. Like there's always, you know, I mean, I think what's interesting, not to backtrack, but what's interesting that Jackson and the screenwriters pulled out was the depth of the elves and the books.

48:25 And they're sort of because they're like the the whole helm steep thing in two towers, right? Like the elves show up and kind of they don't save the day, but they helped save the day. I mean, Gandalf showing up with the rowing save the day. But you know what I mean? That's not in the books at all. Like in the books, the elves are off fighting orcs in what is it Minnes Moria or whatever, like at a completely different place, fighting their own, doing their own thing entirely. But they're still like adding to it. But it made more sense to put it all into one. But the point being is, like, everybody has their own journey to take is what I'm getting at. And I think it's important lesson learned. It's like, yeah, maybe, you know, Elrond's journey is not this. He has to realize it's not the same as his daughter's journey. And no matter what he wants, she has to take her own journey, right?

49:14 The the, the crux of the story in the film between the father and the daughter is letting them find their own path and then then fully embracing it and being happy that they found their path. Because you see with Elrond, when it's when he's, you know, when they're at the top of when they're crowning the king at the end, like he's happy his daughter has found her path, right? Like he's smiling. He's truly, you know, joyful. And then Viggo Mortensen just sticks his tongue right down her throat. It's like F you Elrond, she's mine now. I think he earned lots of point. Lots of tongue and and that. Yeah, for sure he did. Dude, boy, and you. Never me the the he goes an artist man, he's an artist. He's committed to the bit man for me. The thing that that this time around, actually, the last few times I've seen it and I don't, I don't know why it never really stood out to me as a young person, because I'm following Frodo's story as a young person, right. And, and I think that as the two towers and the return of the king go on, you really start to see Frodo become a secondary character in in his own story here. And, and Aragorn really kind of takes over both of these movies. And I think a cynic would say it's because of the action scenes.

50:27 It's because they wanted it to look like Braveheart or whatever. But I, I really do think that's purposeful because of what he's trying to say about the redemption of man. And I think that like what you see, you know, Brad, you keep bringing up the Mouth of Sauron scene that gets cut out of the third movie. And it's it's essentially they all decide we haven't heard from Frodo. I want to believe that he's still alive. It is not looking good. And even though we have just won this massive battle at Ministerith, I think that things are going to go bad and we need to make one last stand just to protect the good in the world that we can. And we know that we're going to go on a suicide mission to the gates of Mordor because if Frodo's alive, we have to distract Sauron and we're all going to die. And they go into this battle knowing we are all going to die. And for some reason, I don't know why that was lost on me as a 13 year old, But there's just something about the amount of times in the 2nd and 3rd movies that characters will say something like tree beard, that's like, it is likely that we go to our doom and everyone's just like, I'm probably going to die and I'm going to do it anyway. And I think that that Mouth of Sauron scene really undercuts that last moment you get with Aragorn where like he has already committed to a suicide mission. The gates of Mordor open.

51:48 Sauron fixes his eye on him and tempts him like Jesus in the last, in the last moment, like the last temptation of Christ, right. And in that moment, he's offered the world before him, like Jesus going up on the mountain, right, and Satan showing him the kingdoms of the world to turn around with that tear in his eye and say for Frodo, it is an unbelievable moment. And I think it is undercut by that mouth of Sauron thing. Because if you see him reject Sauron there, then to see him reject Sauron 30 seconds later, it doesn't quite hit the way that it does before, you know, And that's just personally me. But I think that seeing Aragorn not just as like this king who's coming into his coronation or like, you know, living into his destiny, but seeing Aragorn as representative of all mankind and how we are supposed to be able to overcome temptation, even if it means our own death in the process of it. That's that's the most powerful storyline in this whole thing to me for like by a lot, Brad.

52:53 And even I, I was struck by the coronation scene that you see this like hyper masculine warrior king who also is singing to his, his city. Like the first thing he does, he turns around, he's got his hand on his sword, he's got this crown on. And he starts singing this beautifully mournful song about everything they've lost. And then he walks down and to the lowest of the low, the the halflings that most Gondorians have never heard of. He says you bow to know one and and their king humbles himself to bow to emissaries of another nation that have sacrificed themselves on Gondor's behalf. Like what an incredible picture of like a self assured, confident masculinity that I think we need. Like yes, he has power.

53:51 He fights for what is good. He will sacrifice himself. A walk into the face of death. But he also understands art and beauty and poetry, and he loves one woman, and he loves her faithfully, no matter how much Miranda Otto throws herself at him. Guys, I think this is a good spot for us to take another break. I want to get to 1 more call before we get to that break. It's our friend Chris Chappinar from Instagram. He goes by Whiskey Noobs. Here's his take on the Lord of the Rings trilogy. We'll be back in just a minute on film and whiskey. What? Does The Lord of the Rings mean to me? Well, at least in terms of the first time that I viewed it. I actually did view it as an adult the first time, I regret to say that. But it was with my dad and my brother-in-law and we watched them all in one day.

54:37 It was over the holidays. We survived off Christmas cookies in the basement just watching the movies. So that was a lot of fun. Very nostalgic, very sentimental value for me. But more practically, I guess I think that the movies really hold up in terms of their practical effects, the makeup, and I'd even say the CGI is not terrible. There's a couple scenes where you're definitely like, what's going on here, but I don't know. I mean, these days people are cranking out CGI so fast that it's just not great anyhow. So it holds. Up pretty well I would say. I also think just like culturally, I mean obviously they are some of the most epic movies ever made, maybe the most epic trilogy ever made. You can sit down. You could watch all three in one sitting, assuming you had the time and it wouldn't feel like 3 distinct movies like you. It would feel like 1 storyline.

55:25 But at the same time, you can watch them individually and you'd like you feel like you watched a movie. I think that is just fantastic in terms of the storytelling. And then all of the symbolism, all of the this obviously comes from the books, but all the symbolism in the book with the returning king in the resurrection of Gandalf, things like that. Very interesting symbolism at which as a Christian, I greatly appreciate. And the last thing that I would say is how iconic that there are still so many pop culture references to it today. My favorite that at least has only been recent on my for you page. I like TikTok and Instagram is people like really, really exaggerating. The entire group of friends pauses the movie to say, OK, right there. The scream was real because Viggo Mortensen kicked the helmet and broke his toe.

56:13 He wasn't supposed to kick it. I love like that's still to this day, that's still like such a cult classic that people are are still really, I don't know, making new content about it, making new trends about it. Like I saw it as an actual trend. I thought that was really interesting as well. So for me, one of the most epic trilogy's ever made definitely still holds up. The only scene I forgot I wanted to mention this. The only scene that doesn't totally hold up for me, or I should say series of scenes is every once in a while the elf scenes are like a little too trying hard to seem magical to me. They like pull me out. They're like so extremely whimsical and lofty that they kind of pull me out of the movie a little bit.

56:55 But other than that, I mean, I just still, I think they're phenomenal movies and I would I would watch them again tomorrow. And now I might have to, I might have just talked myself into it. Cheers. All right, we're back talking about the Lord of the Rings trilogy, guys. It's almost time to get out of here for the day. I do want to talk a little bit about the cultural, the lasting cultural legacy of these movies. I mean, obviously they all gross a billion dollars at a time when movies did not gross a billion dollars. It was essentially Titanic and then these movies. And that was that was it, man. And so the, the lasting impact of the box office from these movies is huge. You get Return of the King winning 13 Academy Awards, right?

57:40 Like, or was it 11? I can't remember. But it was in for 11. It it was 11 for 11, a clean sweep. This it you know, they honored the trilogy with the return of the King. And so you've got the Oscar gold to go with the box office gold. But then there's something about the way that these movies. Don't forget about the merchandising gold. Yes, that was another billion dollars in merchandising. Well, and it continues on, right? And now you've got like a whole cottage industry of like these these guys are going to comic cons every year. And just like that's what they do now. But there's something about the way that these captured a a generation of people, you know, millennials, especially in a way that, like, we've seen the Harry Potter fandom fall off over the last 10 years with, you know, people rowing with JK Rowling and people just kind of falling off of the way those books are written and what they're about and getting turned off by the fantastic beasts, whatever The Lord of the Rings.

58:38 I think it helps that you've got the Tolkien of it all behind it. That will never really get old. But these movies in particular just seem to be kind of a last gasp and the last bastion of a certain kind of filmmaking that we don't see anymore. And that it really just took a turn. I hate to keep bringing up the MCU, but like, by the time the MCU comes around, it tries to do what Lord of the Rings did. It doesn't do it. And when, Zach, when you show your teenage sons who have seen the MCU movies what the Lord of the Rings movies are, they can see the difference. There's just something ineffable about you can't even put your finger on. I mean, it's it's the craft, yes. And it's the care and it's the love, and it's the attention and to detail.

59:24 But there's just something about yes, yes. Yeah, and I, I mean, I hate to hate to bring George Lucas into this, but this was happening at the same time as the prequel trilogy. And I, I, my teenage son and I went to see Revenge of the Sith this summer because they had to re release. And that's a way better movie than people give it credit for. And also, I would argue that prequel trilogy also adheres to that sort of same storytelling vibe. It's like, here is our story. This is how Darth Vader became Darth Vader. This is how Obi Wan became Old Ben. This is how Yoda screwed everything up and had to go to Dagobah. And this is how a senator from a backwater became the Emperor and the most evil person in the universe or the Galaxy. And that was it.

1:00:12 We're good, we're done, we're out. And that's the same thing with The Lord of the Rings. It's like this is how good triumph over evil and the ring was finally destroyed. That's it, We're out. And that's I hope to whomever that James Cameron let's Avatar rest at 3 movies and we'll look back at Avatar and be like he did 3 and he's out because Avatar to me is the last. If he if he stops, it's the last breath of that storytelling of like we did three. We're out like we're good. We've told our story, it's fine. And you don't like we got to go back to that, right? Like there's like I, yes, Marvel's coming out with Doomsday and that's all the teenagers are talking about. Like I was standing in line in the cinema, you know, getting popcorn, drinks or whatever.

1:01:05 And I must have heard thirty kids talking about Doomsday and how excited they are that movie is going to make a trillion dollars like, because people are already just like crazy excited about it. Like I haven't heard anything like that since Phantom Menace really. So we're we're beyond it now, though. So it's sort of a thing like we're in a just in a different era, right? Streaming exists now, you know, film like the, you know, it's sort of with AI coming in to fill in with CGI. It's just a different world, right. And I kind of feel like, and this is a very cliched thing to say, but they learned the long the wrong lessons from the Star Wars prequels. They learned the wrong lessons from the Lord of the Rings trilogy because we have the hobbits.

1:01:47 And I'm kind of devastated that Peter Jackson and that whole crew spent a decade making those movies instead of anything else. And like, they tried to look what they learned the wrong lessons. And they made Narnia, which has some merit but is a shitty franchise at the end of the day. And now it's being remade by someone who I'm almost positive does not understand those books at all. Listen, my my biggest argument against the existence of The Hobbit movies is Peter Jackson's King Kong, which I freaking love that movie. It's big and messy and flawed and way too long. But it's, it's so earnest and it's captures the same earnestness of The Lord of the Rings. And it doesn't feel hollow, and it doesn't feel cynical and it doesn't feel like a cash grab.

1:02:36 You know what? All these Movies Now feel like. And you know how I think picked up that mantle and I don't like his movies at all. This is sort of director where I cannot vibe with his movies or the the message of them, but I feel like I would get on with him as a person super well as Guillermo del Toro. I do not like the message of his films at all. I think they're very, they're kind of dangerous in a weird way where it's like, oh, people are weird, It's OK, whatever, dude. It's like, yeah, but like, we're still a society man. Yeah. And you can't, you can't go around having sex with all the fish. And but, but not to get too deep into del Toro, but at least he's taking swings. At least he's doing something that he truly loves.

1:03:17 And with Peter Jackson, you can tell every second of film up on that screen. He is in love with what he is doing every second. And that came through watching it again, you know, 25 years later from when I first saw these films in the cinema. The reason I got into it because I saw Fellowship was like, holy shit, this is this is a movie. I got to see a movie on the cinema. That's my generations, like 2001, my generations Back to the future, my generation's godfather. And I got to be there. And now I read the books and I, you know, I went to the next one to see it on the opening weekend. I went to the next one to see it on opening weekend and I take my children to it because it that love that Peter Jackson has was there and I believe in Bob.

1:04:03 You're right, that love, when I saw King Kong, that love was still there and then it was just like, OK, and I Brad, correct me if I'm wrong, but Peter Jackson said in his intro to Return of the King, he was talking about people that they've lost. And one of the people he's lost is his cinematographer. And he lost him like 15 years ago. And he straight up says the reason I have not done a a fiction movie or a drama movie is because I don't want to work with anyone else. And so I've made these two documentaries for the last 12 years because I don't want to work with anyone else. And that a part of him died with his cinematographer. And that's beautiful that that love is so deep, but also tragic because man, Peter Jackson, just like somebody just gave him a blank check and let him do whatever he wants. That's not a God damn talking movie, like, yeah, you know what I mean?

1:05:01 Just let him do what he wants, like which he has been doing. I mean, that World War One documentary and Get Back documentary are brilliant in their own ways and I'm glad they exist. I'm glad he did that. But it was just so, I mean, I teared up when he said that because that's so heart wrenching. Well, I think, I think what you're speaking to Zach is the reality that humans are meant to create and we are meant to partake and love and love the things that we create. And we're meant to partake in the things that other people create and appreciate the love that has been poured into it. We we recognize it on an innate level.

1:05:41 And when you have these cash grab movies, the reason they're a cash grab is because it's nothing new. You're not adding to the world in any meaningful way. Like I would say that the most beautiful films in history added to the human experience. They didn't just make money. And that's why Lord of the Rings stands out for me is it is at the pinnacle of a group of people who, by all accounts of things sat around for three years making these movies in really difficult circumstances and went through so much together as a team. And they they produced this thing of beauty. That was something that was already a thing of beauty that somebody spent 30 to 40 years of his life trying to write and create and, and the languages that Tolkien made. And, and, and I think that's why I don't always have an issue seeing that somebody is remaking something or bringing it back. I just want to see them capture the heart of what made the original so great.

1:06:51 And it's so rare to see that in a highly corporatized world. It just really doesn't happen that often. And I. Have a question like Bob, you mentioned, like you know, you had a sort of like it clicked in for you sort of later as you grew up in life, like the the movies meetings clicked in a little bit more for you. Like do you find like you know, I talk about myself, but you know, you guys have small kids and you're sort of introducing movies to them in general. Do you find you, do you choose movies for a message or do you choose it for just entertainment? Because let's be fair, there is just entertainment, right? Like we do sometimes just need to click off. But that do you find that there's it's the same reason why we what books we read to our kids to put them to sleep, right?

1:07:45 Like we don't just pick up any book and start reading it to them. You know what I mean? And like how then, does a movie like this inform when you want your kids to Start learning these messages? You know, it's funny, like I so for me watching these movies with my, my oldest son, he he's got a really sweet like spirit and, and is really sensitive. And so like he was, he was like legitimately scared for a lot of these movies and he watched them all cuddled up next to me and it was, it was nice to have that moment in general. But when he gets nervous, he like he tries to deflect and he'll ask a lot of questions just to distract him from whatever is making him nervous.

1:08:26 And so as as the finale of Return of the King is happening, like he's on pins and needles, man, like he doesn't know what's going to happen. And so I have to keep an. Amazing feeling God. You got to stop talking, you got to watch the movie. But to answer your question, like it's a mix for me. Like sometimes I'll just let them pick a movie and they'll pick the freaking dog man movie and I have to watch dog man and like, but it's important that they be able to pick a movie. And sometimes we watch a movie like Lord of the Rings where like part of the reason that I tell my son that he has to stop talking is because I know my friends, you bow to no one is about to happen in 10 seconds. And he's talking about how gross it was to see Aragorn kiss Arwen. And I'm like, no, no, no, like, please, please watch this movie. Because for me, I one of one of the big things for me growing up was like my dad was like a, a tough guy and projected himself like a tough guy.

1:09:19 And I always heard stories about him getting in bar fights and stuff. And. Keeping strong. We'd watch movies together and he would like, he'd cry at the end of a movie and he couldn't help himself to cry at like, the end of Saving Private Ryan or whatever. And like, he never apologized for that. And it was really meaningful to me that I got to see from my dad that, like, you can cry and that's OK. And that sounds stupid to say, but like, that's, you know, we're all guys. Like, we've seen that. And so it's important to me to be able to show him movies where he can see that, at least to his dad, the message of this movie is so resonant that it brings him to tears. And I think for Lord of the Rings, it's like this is everything I want to communicate to my kid about what it means to be good in the world and what to stand up for and what we want to preserve about the world.

1:10:05 And maybe he was too young to watch these, but I hope that he wasn't too young to like to get that message from me. Just watched Coco. We believe me, Sir, we've done that too. We're talking about cry. No, it's funny because. That yeah, I would say that to answer your question for me, you know, my, my oldest is five and she like gets nervous when Daniel Tiger is like angry. So we're not quite on the movies yet. I have like a whole, partially because my wife and I are planning on homeschooling. I have like a whole, I haven't made the spreadsheet yet, but I'm going to of like, all right, when we do World War 2 in history, when she's 141516, we're going to watch The Pianist and we're going to watch Schindler's List and we're going to like, we're going to watch Baby Private Ryan. It's the superior film.

1:11:01 Sure, but we're like, we're going to watch World War 2 movies and and we're going to experience it. Because I do think that the beauty of cinema is that when, when movies are at their best, it's when it can evoke in you the emotions and feelings of the characters on screen, regardless of whether you've ever been through what they're going through. And I think that it, it gives you an empathy for so many things that have happened to humans. And so I like, I have this whole plan of like, yeah, when when we study different things, we are going to watch all these different movies so that it clicks and it makes the world come to life in a meaningful way. And I, I can't wait, dude.

1:11:54 I am like so excited for that. So I've I've gotten to the age then in my life because I'm I've been a cinephile my whole life. My come, my grandfather was my father was my mother was like I grew. I grew up in the movies and I now cry like watching a film that's just beautiful to watch in the cinema. My son at one point turned on. He's like, why are you crying now? I'm like, it's just the movie is amazing. Like I'm yes, you're watching something that just is so rarely received now that we so rarely get like the the the Mubakil scene in return of the King. When when they come stomping in and this they're bellowing and like it cuts to the guys driving them and you just get this, this scene that's just like you will never see this again sort of thing, right?

1:12:49 And it's just like it moves me to tears because it's just like the beauty of I mean, I had like Brad, you said, like, you know, you hear the Nazcool sound move. And I was thinking the same thing when Theoden's like hitting this the Spears as he's giving his speech and you hear it move across the room and around. You screaming death. Yeah. And it's just like those things where, you know, even in Back to the Future, when the car screeches, you hear it screeching across the room, right. And it's sort of, you know, there's something just so beautiful about that in theater, in cinema experience where, you know, I'm very much that film mergers. Like you have to like, oh, you didn't like the movie because you watched it on your computer. Well, go fuck yourself. Like, go watch it in the cinema until you don't like it. You know, I'm.

1:13:30 I'm literally that guy. And so like I and I've always devoted a large amount of my time and money to going to see films, whether they're new or old or what have you. That's just my way my brains wired, if you will. And so seeing these films in the cinema again, first time extended edition. But seeing it again, having the experience of sitting next to my son's while doing so and seeing their reactions, you know, in the same because you know, you look over to like, like you said, you're like, you're always looking over to see like what they're thinking you're doing. And, you know, they're laughing and they're, you know, they, you see them, they're trying not to be emotional because they're teenage boys and they're not going to be national, you know, and. And Zach?

1:14:14 Over here, just like. Oh yeah, waterfall like but like also. Sons, don't you see the giant elephants? Yeah, but also like it's also outside the experience. So we were like, when we're getting concessions, probably talking a lot of school, my son, but he doesn't listen to this, so he's not going to hear it. But evidently, like there was like this group of girls who knew my older son and were like kind of flirting with them. And then I'm listening to him and his younger brother and his younger brother be like, I'll hook it up, man. I'll get her phone number for you. Like I'll, you know, and like, they're having a theater experience, you know what I mean? They're like having a social experience. Dude, it's like going to the County Fair. As a. 15 year. Old and I'm not a I'm not a Debbie Downer thing at all. We're going to lose movie theaters. I don't think we're ever going to lose movie theaters, but also like those experiences make the film even more important to you when you have.

1:15:04 One 100%. And I love that they can have that, you know, and I sort of. Guys, I it's crazy how much this conversation is reflecting Return of the King because we just reached our emotional climax and yet we still have more things to talk about. We haven't even nipped yet. Come on, we've got another full ending. To do, let's take one more quick break and then we'll round out this episode. All right, we're talking about the Lord of the Rings trilogy and it's time for us to kind of wind down guys. And I think one of the good ways to do that is to spend maybe 30 seconds to 60 seconds a piece offering any small critiques we have on on the trilogy as a whole. I really don't have anything else to say. Like I said, I I think that the, the tonal whiplash when you're watching them as a marathon kind of gets to you a little bit. I do think, Brad, that this time through, unfortunately, like I think on on 2 Towers, I went from A10 to a nine and a half. And I think from on Return to the King, I went from A10 to a nine and a half and fellowship is kind of still at a 9 1/2. So all these movies are like 9 and a halfs for me. But like the totality of these films is still a 10. Like the experience that they draw out of you is still kind of unparalleled for me.

1:16:18 You know, guys, I'll, I'll, I'll give you the floor. If you have anything, any nitpicks you want to get out just for the sake of absolving your your souls here, go for it. I think I said it with like 2 Towers was a little more filler this time around especially, and I think part of that was a CGI kind of takes you out of it a bit. But overall, I mean, I think I texted you guys this like Fellowship of the Rings for me is like a million out of 10. That's a film, yeah. Two Towers, yeah, 9 out of 10. But then return man, like that movie was so much better on this viewing that like I I had saw from a whole new POV and it was just, I don't know, I thought it was again, 1,000,000 out of 10 as well. It was just one of those movies where like there's nothing else like it, right?

1:17:04 Like they're just they're just saying and it's and I love it. And there are, of course, a little nitpicky things like like I said, Gollum looks shittier in two towers than he doesn't return to the king or whatever. Who cares? Yeah, I mean, I I this time through specifically with return of the King, I was blown away by Bernard Hill as King Theoden. I like I he he never stuck out to me as a kid when I watched them. Like he's cool, don't get me wrong, but death the the whole speech awesome. But this time through I his performance was light years.

1:17:45 One of the best performances. And honestly, it's it's the only real saving grace for Theoden, because I still struggle with the character of Theoden because Theoden is constantly like, yeah, I mean, it's the folly of man a little bit that he's, you know, he's like he's possessed and then he's freed and then he's mourning his son and then he's heroic and then he's a punk bitch for a while. And it's like, Theoden, what the hell? Like he and he's constantly just like, why can't we just die? Just let me ride out in battle and die. And then it's the same thing in Return to the King. He's like, we're never going to win. Shut the fuck up, dude. Like, go out there and defend your people. But then he finally gets to the moment where it's like he's laying there on his deathbed, you know, for lack of a better term. And like, it clicks for him and he says, like, I'm going now to the halls of my father's and he, you know, forgive me if I don't get the quote exactly right.

1:18:37 But he's like, in whose presence I will not no longer be ashamed. And it's like, oh, man, like that you did it that like, well done, good and faithful servant, like go into the presence of your father's man. It's such a good performance. And I'm so glad you brought it up because my next question was going to be like, let's do 30 seconds on a performance this time around. And for me, it was Miranda Otto who is like, especially in return, it is a physically demanding role. It's an emotionally, it's an emotionally demanding role. Watching her grieve Theoden, watching her try to comfort Mary while she's shaking herself, you know, and then to to take this kind of nothing burger of like a maybe love interest for Aragorn and really round it into a heroine. I mean, first of all, she's 10 times better of an actress than Liv Tyler is as Arwyn.

1:19:31 No offense, Liv Tyler, I'm sorry, but like it watching this time around. I was. I'm like, Miranda Otto deserved more of a career after this because she's like in the stratosphere for me of people in this film. She's exceptionally good. My wife and I always joke about Liv Tyler that like Arwyn was the perfect role for her because and I had not really seen her in many other movies and I don't remember what we watched, but she was in something else. And I was like, oh, she still does her elf voice. She she talks like this with everything she says. I'm like, oh, that's perfect for like this ethereal like eternal elf, great voice.

1:20:13 And then I was like, oh, that's just her normal acting voice. She's not a good actress. Great for Arwin, Miranda, Otto. Miranda, Otto. Oh my gosh, dude. I also one piece from the extended edition that I like the edition was and like you can tell they're trying to put it in there because it's core to the book, but it doesn't need to be in there for the theatrical cut is when Aragorn is in the houses of healing, helping to heal Miranda Otto. And you know, there's like her and Faramir fall in love in the book and in the extended edition, which I think is great. But just the just the fact that you get to see Aragorn has the hands of a king and the hands of a king are the hands of a healer. Like I like just that little addition for 40 seconds I thought was such a great addition for his character to fully round out an incredible character. Yeah, I thought that.

1:21:11 I thought that was in the theatrical. I didn't realize that was an extended scene. OK. Yeah. Yeah, because it's so crucial. Like it's, it's, it's so. Crucial to who he is as a character. I have to give it up to Sean Astin, man, I was just going to say, man, he's the best performance in any of these movies. He's just one off at him. Yes, Yep. Yes, I don't. Know, like, especially the thing about Return of the King is like I, I just wonder, like the filming, you know, because I know they filmed them roughly in chronological order and by the time you get to return to the King, oh, did they film them out of order? No, so Peter Jackson tells a story where he's up filming Gandalf and Bilbo in Fellowship in the beginning and runs down the hill to film Sam coming home at the end end to his family Shit.

1:21:59 OK, well, that's interesting because like, you know, they they'd so perfectly capture the like, we haven't had sleep in weeks. We're all paranoid. Everybody's like half crying. Their eyes are red and they're on the verge of tears the entire movie, you know, especially him and and Frodo and and I think that like to be in that sort of emotional hysterics throughout the entire movie. The way Sam is, it's a really challenging performance. And then it's nothing, you know, not to say anything about Elijah Wood as Frodo. I think that he's very good. I also think Frodo's kind of like kind of a lame character to have. Like if you're going to, if someone offered you any character in Lord of the Rings to play, like I'm not going to play Frodo, I'm going to play Sam. Like Sam's the better character.

1:22:44 Because Frodo has a single beat. Like Frodo has a single beat. He's the ring bearer. He can only go down and that's it. Like he can only go down and come back. Like there's no, there's nothing else there. Like he doesn't have to carry anybody. He's has to carry a ring and argue, you know? It's just a ring, Frodo. Come on, bro. Yeah. No, bro. No, but like Sam, like Sean Astin, I mean, and of course we all know Sean Astin. I mean, we're talking about a child actor from basically Hollywood royalty. Like he grew up. His father was, you know, Gomez Adams, for God's sakes, and blah, blah, blah. So he knows what he's doing, of course, and so does Elijah, what he's been a child actor, etcetera, blah, blah, blah. But there's just something about his performance that's just like, how late?

1:23:27 Where are you pulling this from, man? Like, this is just like every, every. And to your point, Bob, like every scene is with him and Frodo, like everyone, basically. And those scenes do not work unless you have Sam. They're being like, come on, man. You know, he's a villain. Like, come on, dude. Like, this is like, OK, I mean, I know it's cliche now because it's 25 years later, but it's like, if I I can't carry the ring, I'll carry you like that moment. And he picks him up and starts. It's so good, you know? And so like, and I think we said it earlier, like when he's talking about like, the the dream of going back to the Shire to keep Frodo going and the way he sells it is just like, he should have won a goddamn Oscar. Like, yes. Like yes.

1:24:08 I well. And for me, I think a moment. Performance like that. He'll have like a big moment like when Frodo puts on the ring inside Mount Doom and you get the great shot of him going no. And then they cut away and they cut back to him. And it's like he's almost like pleading. He's just like, no. Like it's that second beat. And it's, you know, it's when they're outside and they're surrounded by the lava and they both think they're going to die. And he starts crying about not being able to go back and marry Rosie. And it's just like it would have been. Hurt. Oh my God. Like it's he sells those moments so much that none of the other stuff ever seems like overblown or Comic Relief because he's it's like it's just such an earnest character. Brad, I keep using that word that you love to use, but that's Sean Astin to AT in this movie. And that's that's the entire trilogy. Like, I'll give one more quick actor shout out, John Noble as Laura as Stewart Denethor.

1:25:05 Oh my God. I like, I think when I was younger, I was a little less hyped on him. Dude, I'm telling you, in theaters when he's yelling at them to flee, he has the best. Like he has to have been a trained stage actor because the way he projects his voice. And it's very Shakespearean. And it fits. And I even like comparing his performance to Theodens. I I think that's something I've realized is that the movie does a really good job of pairing off almost every character. And, you know, on the other side of Dennithor, you have Theoden, the king of his nation. And yes, he is a little, a little bit whiny about like what he wants to do.

1:25:53 I think the key for Theoden is when he's talking to Eowen Miranda Otto, when he says like you're going to be the queen and you know you're going to ride back to Eddie Ross and and the way he tells her defend it with till your very last, like you can tell that he knows that the odds are they're going to lose at Ministerith and eventually they're going to come to Eddie Ross. And so he knows that he is charging her with this dark, terrible doom of defending a dying nation, and yet he does it anyways.

1:26:35 And when you compare that to the large bravado Shakespearean Lord Denethor, it makes Theoden's character the more deep and meaningful and powerful the things he does. The great thing about Denethor though, is like how from the very beginning Gandalf is like, I do not have time for this shit. Like, like, he's like, I'm just going to kick you in the face with my horse. And when you run out of the room on fire, I'm just going to be like. And that's the end of that guy. Like, he literally, like, gives the eulogy as he's running out on fire. So passes den of like, yeah. It's. Also, we haven't talked about the cinematography almost at all.

1:27:15 Tell me that the shot following him out and seeing him. Falling off of minister. And it just keeps zooming out to the point where his flaming body, which you think is the main thing of that scene, just becomes a pin prick of nothingness. And then it zooms back into the battle and you're like. The only thing that could have made that better is if they cut to like what's at the bottom of that fall and it's the propeller from Titanic and then he just flips off that at the top so that that would have been. In the extended edition they basically do that with Saruman. He gets stabbed. And he falls down and he falls on the thing and then it literally just like it's like a reverse T2, like his boots are the last thing you see going into the water. And they're just staring at it like. Yeah, let's, let's wind down today. I want to do this.

1:28:06 I have two more questions for you. They're both pretty quick. The first one is now that we've rewatched them, or at least two of us have, what's your ranking one through 3 of the Lord of the Rings films? Brad, I'll start with you. I, I have always for a while I was a 2 towers stand. I for a long time though, Bob, like I've said this to you many times, fellowships, my favorite. I think fellowship stands up there. It probably is a recency bias. I. I'd probably put two towers in Return of the King. Neck and neck, I think. I think Return of the King is the sloppiest of the three films because he's trying to cram in so much to finish it off. And you also just have a lot more characters that you've been introduced to.

1:28:57 And he's still introducing new characters in the third movie that you're like, OK, I it's a little sloppy, it's a little ragged, but it it's got one of the greatest battle scenes of all time in the battle of Pellinore Fields. Like, talk about a great scene of like, the stakes just keep getting ratcheted up. It's like from the moment they launch those skulls over the top to the moment of the army of the dead arriving and saving the day, it's like something good happens for the bad guys and then good happens with the good guys and the bad guys. That's a longer answer than you wanted. I think Return and two are equal for me and fellowships my favorite.

1:29:40 You know what? This time through, I still think that The Two Towers has the greatest hour of any of the 9 hours, 9 1/2 hours of the theatre. I just think that that from the time Helm's Deep starts to the end of that movie, I want to live in the perfection of that for the rest of my life. I think 2 Towers might be the weakest of the three now, Brad. And that freaking pisses me off 'cause I've completely switched. I still think that Fellowship is my my personal least favorite of the three. And it's probably the best one because it's the most cohesive one. It's the one that I just vibe with the least. I don't, I don't love the Tolkien language. I don't like that they don't they don't really ease the viewer into that world.

1:30:24 And so it's a steep learning curve with Fellowship, but it's like it's the one that feels the most like this is what Lord of the Rings is. And then by the third one, you've got a lot of like the dialogue that they're making character, say, feels very Hollywood. And it feels the least Tolkany in that first like hour and a half of the third one. But then they stick the landing. And so it's like, I think right now I'm at 132, which which pains me to say, Brad. Yeah that's wild dude. What? What made you switch on 2 towers overall? I think. I think realizing that like the first two hours of the Two Towers only exist to get you to Helm's Deep, and there's like there's very little happening in Two Towers up until that, like, you know, you get Candolf coming back, there are trees.

1:31:10 Talking about saying good morning. Like even the even the battle of let you where they're like fighting the wargs and then Aragorn falls off the Cliff and it's like, Oh no, is he dead? It's like, no, he's not dead. Come on, It's the middle of the second movie. Like I don't even know this story and I know he's not dead. So I I think it's like. You know, you get to see his horse. You get to see his horse. Be a good boy. You come on, he he does find him. So yeah, man, that's where I'm at. Zach, what's your ranking right now? Yeah, I'm, I'm a 132 guy as well, I think. And there you go. This is a memory from Scene 2 towers in the cinema. That scene when they're they're rushing the film and Gimli's on the horse and gums up the Lego loss and Lego loss, like in this most terrible CGI of 2002, flips around the horse and up onto it.

1:31:59 I remember somebody in the theater being like, oh, come on. And be like, pull a giant cigar out. Come on. But watching that again, this time in Two Towers, it is like, oh, come on, like what you doing? Like you got a new toy and you're playing with your new toy. And for me that's that's the fault of Two Towers. 2 Towers feels like he's playing with new toys that he not perfects but refines. For returning the King. That works better. But also I've always liked the end of Return to the King. I think all those endings and fade outs are earned and I think that for the story, but fellowship is comfort. Like I can throw that movie on anytime it doesn't feel like it. I mean, it's amazing on the big stream, but you can watch it at home and it feels like a Sunday afternoon rainy day movie still because it's and it looks amazing. Like that movie just it's lush.

1:32:51 Yeah, they all look amazing, but it's lush and it's welcoming and it's Rivendale is comforting. And the Shire, I mean, my, my 14 year old boy was like, I want to, I want to go live in the Shire. And I'm like, hey, you can go there. It's in New Zealand. So that's still there. And he's like, really? He was actually excited that he can go there. I have friends who have been there and they said it is worth every penny and they could charge triple the price and it would still be worth it. And that's the beauty of fellowship, right? Like it's sort of like people still go there 25 years later and I you know, that that's. Beautiful. And the decision to as soon as they are what, they're riding their ponies back into the Shire at the end of Return of the King, and they're all in there like chain mail and swords and bright colors and all this stuff. Dylan.

1:33:38 Faramir's suit. Yep, Yep. Yeah, they're wearing their Rohanian gear and Gondorian gear. The grumpy old man. I love the fact that he introduces them back in with the grumpy old man who like. For me, he is the epitome of the Shire. Like the guy who's like, I want to have a good time, but my wife is kind of grumpy and so I'm grumpy too. But I really like kids and I'm just out here sweeping my front porch and worried about the potato harvest. And they're polishing a pumpkin and everybody's just laughing at in a good time. And Yep, it's beautiful. Oh man. Guys, final thoughts, final question, why does this trilogy survive? Well, you see, capitalism, Bob, is a merchandise. That's why.

1:34:29 Where's my cigar to champ on I? Think it survives because it says something aspirationally true for every human being. We want to be Sam. We want to be Frodo. We want to be able to bear a burden to the very end, and when we fail, we have somebody who loves us and sees us through it. We want to be Aragorn. We want to be a strong. I take on all things we want to be failed in and say even in the face of death. Certain death I will charge into the fray and defend what is right and good and fight against evil like. It it speaks. To the best parts of human nature and what we want to be.

1:35:12 And so when we experience people on screen being the thing we want to be, it speaks to our souls. And I, I think that's why it doesn't just survive 25 years. I think when it hits its hundred year anniversary, it still will be talked about. I I think it's just this incredible story. Guys, that's, I mean, listen, we've done it. We've gotten through the Lord of the Rings trilogy and it's short enough that we can't play it as a DVD commentary over the movies, so that's good. We made it out in an hour and a half ish. Here. We want to say thank you to all of our callers, all the people who wrote in to tell us what they thought about Lord of the Rings. We want to say thank you to our friend Zach Johnston. Zach, tell us a little bit about what you're working on and where we can find you. Yeah, Blackwood Whiskey, baby.

1:35:59 We're working on a big project now, which we're probably going to announce in March, but we just got into Whole Foods. So if you're in California, Texas or Kentucky and chocolate Whole Foods, you'll be able to find us there starting February. We're working on a couple other cool projects and collaborations coming up in spring as well. We're doing the first ever release of a whiskey that's never been made before. So that's exciting. And we're just, we're just trying to keep Kentucky bourbon alive, baby. It's it's rough out here and plug it away. Yeah. Well, it's good to have you back on, man. It's always good to see you, folks. We'd love to know what you think about the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

1:36:42 What hot takes have not been introduced here today on the podcast? Are you going to go see it in theaters before it's gone this weekend? And let us know what your rankings are. You can find us on any of our social media accounts Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube at Film Whiskey. Or if you want, you can join the conversation I will be getting on a day or two from now and asking the question. What do you think about Lord of the Rings? We're 25 years out, so if you want you can jump onto our Discord server. Join the conversation. You can find a link at the end of every single one of our show notes. We will be back on Tuesday with a pretty special episode of our own.

1:37:22 I will be talking about the 1961 classic West Side Story with our friend Patrick H Williams. So I'm pretty pumped for that one as well. Join us on Tuesday for that conversation, but until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time. Music.