Seabiscuit (2003) / Kentucky Derby 2026

Bob Book (0:00): Today on Film and Whiskey, we're talking about the Kentucky Derby coming up this weekend, and we're watching probably my favorite horse racing movie of all time, a movie that I've been wanting to talk about on this podcast for eleven seasons now. We're finally getting around to Seabiscuit, a horse that famously did not compete in the Kentucky Derby, Brad. So, you know, the thinnest of connections this week, but I'm excited for it. Absolutely, dude. This is gonna be a blast.

Brad Gee (0:29): As I was watching this movie, I told my wife about how I watched this movie when it came out. I read the book, the entire thing in like seventh grade, And I had, like, zero memories of this movie other than when Chris Cooper goes, he lied to us. He's blind in one eye. And now there's so

Bob Book (0:52): many out. I'm gonna have you sit on that thought, Brad, because we need to throw to a quick break. That's all gonna be ahead on Film and Whiskey. Well, hey, everybody. Welcome into the Film and Whiskey podcast.

Bob Book (1:20): I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad g. And we're coming at you with a an interseason intra interseason bonus episode, folks. Interseason bonus episode. We are existing in the the nether regions of the between season.

Bob Book (1:40): The what regions? Not those nether regions. We're existing in the void between seasons. Right? Subscribe to the Patreon.

Bob Book (1:46): Is coming probably at the June. Brad and I are taking a sort of long deserved break

Unknown Speaker (1:52): It's bad

Bob Book (1:52): at all. Podcast right now after Yeah. Seven plus years of weekly posting. But we realized, you know, in order for this podcast to stay ranked, we have to, like, put out episodes every now and then. One or two.

Bob Book (2:03): And I said, what better way to do that than to time this up with the release or the annual running of the Kentucky Derby? Hey. Like, perhaps the biggest tie in to the world of Kentucky bourbon that any sport or event has. Woodford Reserve has obviously been the title sponsor of the Kentucky Derby for years and years now. It's always a big deal.

Bob Book (2:24): It's fun to see Chris Morris on there every year, giving somebody a mint julep. And I suggested this to Brad. I said, you know, let's pair it up with a horse movie. I wanna do Seabiscuit.

Unknown Speaker (2:34): And what did

Bob Book (2:35): I that, Brad came back to me and was like, the Kentucky Derby. Why would we do that? And so my first question unto you, sir

Unknown Speaker (2:44): Mhmm. Is like, do do

Bob Book (2:46): you just not watch the derby? Was it not a part of your life growing up at all?

Brad Gee (2:51): I've never watched the Kentucky Derby a single time in my life. Oh, dude. I I am so uninterested. Now because I lived in Kentucky, I have been to multiple horse races. We've been there for the podcast.

Brad Gee (3:07): You actually, Bob, took me to my first horse race. We went to Keeneland in Lexington, had an absolute blast, And it's fine. Wow, dude.

Bob Book (3:19): You know, it's funny too because like, I didn't grow up in a household that was like all about following horses throughout the year. Sure. But it just seemed like every year my dad was like, hey, we'll watch, the Triple Crown. We'll watch the derby, and then we'll look to see if they win the Preakness. And then if they win the Preakness, we're for sure watching the Belmont.

Bob Book (3:36): And they're three weeks apart. It's just on a Saturday afternoon when you're not really doing anything, and it only requires about two to three minutes of your full attention. So it just always was something we did growing up. It used to be really fun to like go through the horse names in the newspaper with my dad, and you know, I could tell what was a long shot and what wasn't, but you just pick a horse based on this sounds like a name of a Kentucky Derby winner to me. Yeah.

Bob Book (4:00): And you would just, you know, gamble against your dad, and that was the that was the fun of it, man. So

Unknown Speaker (4:05): Learning how

Bob Book (4:06): to watched the Kentucky Derby. Yeah. You got you gotta learn how to gamble from somebody. Why not your own father? That's that's what I keep that lineage going, Brad.

Brad Gee (4:15): Totally. Yeah. No. I I just didn't grow up in a family that was very sports aware. So, like, they're my parents are from Iowa.

Brad Gee (4:24): They could give a rip. Like, grow up in the nineties, we would go to Cleveland baseball games, go see the Indians play. You know, I had friends who liked the browns, so I fell in love with the browns. So, like, you know, I naturally fell into it, but my parents were never like, hey. You wanna look at horses and and see who's gonna win the derby?

Unknown Speaker (4:45): I just I just wasn't in my family. After you told me

Bob Book (4:49): that you weren't interested that much in the derby, I went and looked up like, is it popular or is it not? Because sometimes it's just like a Brad G thing where like you just lived a different life than a lot of us. Totally. And it's like it's in that in between. Right?

Bob Book (5:01): So it it averages, I think it's at about 16,000,000 viewers per year, which is higher than most NBA finals games have been. It's higher than things like the masters. So it's not obviously, it's not like your NFL football, but apart from NFL, it's one of the most highly watched sporting events of the year. And when I think about it, I do kind of think it should be more popular because there's not one other sporting event I can think of outside of the Super Bowl that mimics laying out your day the way you do a Super Bowl. Where you like, all you do is like sit around and watch horses walk around a track and everyone's starting to drink and you're eating like whatever appetizers you are and you just spend the whole day gearing up for that race.

Bob Book (5:46): There's I mean, you don't obviously, you don't watch golf or tennis that way, but you don't even watch things like the World Series or NBA basketball that way. So this is my plug. Watch the Kentucky Derby, drink a mint julep, or whatever your bourbon drink of choice might be. It's a hell of a fun time, dude. Two minutes of your attention is all it really requires.

Brad Gee (6:05): Can I can I say what I think the reason why it has waned in popularity over the years? Pita. I I mean, probably not, but maybe. Who knows? Maybe PETA is

Unknown Speaker (6:17): like dude.

Brad Gee (6:18): Right? The secret powerhouse in in Washington DC. They're they're the ones putting all the money out there. I think at the end of the day, like, every sport has within its rules, like, ways that you can have cool things happen. Right?

Brad Gee (6:36): Like in baseball, if you hit the ball far enough, you just score, and anybody on base in front of you scores. And in basketball, you heave the ball from far enough and you score three points instead of two. And, like, every sport, like football has the Hail Mary. Like, we all have cool ways to score. Horse racing at the end of the day is like, did he run fat?

Brad Gee (7:00): Oh, he he cut on the inside of the lane instead of the outside of the lane this time.

Bob Book (7:06): Is not a compelling argument. It's the exact same thing. This is like saying watching Usain Bolt is boring because man go faster than other man. Like, racing is cool, dude. It is.

Unknown Speaker (7:17): Like, I I don't know what to tell you.

Brad Gee (7:18): I'm a I'm a ten year track and field athlete. I love track and field. I'm just saying, track and field does not draw numbers on a broad level.

Unknown Speaker (7:27): That's that's fair.

Brad Gee (7:28): So That's don't know if you're helping your argument at all. I like it. I enjoy it. But there's only so much variability in, wow, he ran that 100 meters point one second faster than last time.

Bob Book (7:44): There is I I gotta say though, man. There's something fun about whether it's in human racing or in animal racing about a photo finish. When you Yeah. When you see them all cross the finish line in a cluster, and even your eyes can't tell who it was, and you have to wait on whose nose was ahead a little bit, it's just there's nothing better, dude. It's great.

Brad Gee (8:05): It's absolutely incredible. I I'm with I like I think Horse Racing's cool. I understand why it's not widely popular. You know what would make it widely popular though, Bob? If you turned it into, like, a WWE style thing where characters like Red Pollard are like coming out, like from the top rope jumping down and like elbowing other people, I think that would make it more interesting.

Bob Book (8:31): Yeah. See, was thinking about like a cage match version of like when they used to have that at WrestleMania and Yeah. Oh, what was the dude that always jumped off the top of the cage? Mick Foley. Like, want I want a horse jumping off of the cage into another horse.

Bob Book (8:47): That's that's what if PETA hasn't gotten us yet, they will after that, Brad.

Brad Gee (8:51): Hey, Chad GPT. Can you create a video?

Bob Book (8:56): Luckily, we don't need Chad GPT to create a video for what we're talking about today, Brad, which is the movie Seabiscuit. Now, this is a movie that is very, very near and dear to my heart. I'm not gonna lie. It just it got at Bob at an impressionable age, and it is much like the movies that you like, Brad. Every now and then you want a movie that is just dripping with cheese.

Bob Book (9:19): Yep. And is like incredibly earnest. And especially like as an American, every now and then I love a movie that's just like about what makes America really great. You know what I Yes. Mean?

Bob Book (9:32): There's something about and there's I don't even know if we're gonna do let's make it a double on this bonus episode, but there is a very obvious movie to pair this with that we've already talked about. The Bulldog. The Bulldog of Bergen. Look. You said a movie in the Great Depression, and you talk about important sports figures that gave a nation hope at a time where it didn't have hope, and I'm on board.

Bob Book (9:56): That's just all there is to it. And I think that having watched Cinderella Man twice now for the podcast, I didn't realize you had ever seen Seabiscuit. I thought this was a first time watch for you. Now you've already alluded to the fact that you don't remember anything from it. So I do kind of wanna turn it over to you, Brad.

Bob Book (10:13): For folks that haven't seen Seabiscuit, I mean, I don't know if you're gonna give it your stamp of approval or not. I certainly do. I think it's a worthwhile movie to watch. I think it's a damn good sports movie too, when you talk about like what makes sports awesome. So I would recommend go watch Seabiscuit, Come back and join us for the remainder of the episode.

Bob Book (10:32): But I want to get into Brad explains. Brad, you have sixty seconds on the clock. Break down the plot of this movie, which is just in the historical record. We're not spoiling anything here, people. So I think we can go full spoilers, Brad, and go.

Brad Gee (10:48): Seabiscuit is a film that follows the titular horse named Seabiscuit, who fun fact was sired by Hardtack. Do you know what Hardtack was, Bob?

Bob Book (10:59): I do know what hardtack is.

Brad Gee (11:01): Hardtack was a biscuit that was incredibly hard.

Unknown Speaker (11:04): A sea biscuit.

Unknown Speaker (11:05): Ate on the sea.

Unknown Speaker (11:07): Were clever.

Brad Gee (11:08): They were they sure were. But also, how do you go for man of war? I guess man of war was a type of ship. There you go. I just I solved my own problem.

Brad Gee (11:17): Have like twenty seconds.

Unknown Speaker (11:22): Notoriously aquatic based.

Brad Gee (11:26): I was ready to give the whole plot in twenty seconds, and then you said, Andy Jelley. Seabiscuit follows the horse Seabiscuit who was a crap horse of a great sire that wasn't doing good, and Red Pollard who's a crappy jockey who's way too big and angry and Irish. And it followed Howard, Charles Howard who owned Buick Motors, and he married Elizabeth Banks and was she was like, hey, you should own horses. And so he got Chris Cooper who was this like crazy hermit cowboy to be his horse whisperer, and they make one of the greatest horse racing stories of all time.

Bob Book (12:07): Boom. Boom. Seabiscuit. That's it. Seabiscuit.

Bob Book (12:10): I I love that you were going through a list of negative traits of Tobey Maguire's character. And what you meant to say is that his Irishness is the cause of his anger, but it just became in that list another negative trait. You were like, he's bad at racing, he's angry, and he's Irish. This is like a triple whammy of guys we don't like.

Unknown Speaker (12:33): As somebody with Irish in my blood, I'm allowed to I'm allowed to talk bad about

Unknown Speaker (12:37): the Irish. You're allowed to do it. Sure. Sure.

Brad Gee (12:40): The the thing is though, he's not mad because he's Irish. He's mad because he was abandoned as a child. Perhaps even sold into the details are a little shaky. I mean, I I never I never thought of it as him being sold. I thought of it as like, hey, you're gonna work for this guy now because he can give you a job and it's the My great wife looks at me and goes, they just sold him into slavery.

Bob Book (13:11): I was like, don't It's not slavery, Brad. It's indentured servitude. That's the difference. Well, let's talk about this a little bit because, you know, you you started off, Brad explains, by saying this is a movie about Seabiscuit. But the the character of the horse doesn't come into the movie until like forty five minutes, an hour into the movie, and it's a two hour and twenty minute film.

Bob Book (13:35): So you have this, I guess what you could consider this extended prologue about these three intertwining lives living their separate tragedies throughout the Great Depression before they all kind of converge on this horse Seabiscuit. And so you've got the story of Red Pollard, the jockey, who we meet as a child who has a pretty wealthy upbringing in Canada, and, you know, equestrian, like you see him riding horses. And then they get hit by the depression really hard, and he gets maybe sold to someone. Who knows? Who's to say?

Bob Book (14:07): You have a kind of a scant background on the trainer whose name is Tom, and the last name is escaping me, but that's Chris Cooper's character. And he is like literally a cowboy. You see him out in Wyoming somewhere, and his big thing is like, they're putting fences up all over my country. And then you see him I was gonna say riding a train like a hobo, and that's his whole backstory. But

Brad Gee (14:28): there's also like the I'm your mom and I have cancer moment of like, he comes up on the fence and it's Charles Howard's racing team building a new racetrack. Yep. And they destroy his beautiful country, and then that never comes up again. It just Yeah. It just happens.

Bob Book (14:51): Then who goes and gets a job from the guy? So it's like, I forgive you for destroying our nation's planes. Yes. And then you have Jeff Bridges' character, Howard, who is a very wealthy car salesman. Salesman.

Bob Book (15:05): He starts off as a bicycle salesman through his own ingenuity and also media savvy, builds up this big empire of selling vehicles. And you have this great kind of, I wouldn't even call it a metaphor. It kind of beats you over the head with, he buys this property that has stables. He moves the horses out of the stables to move vehicles into the stables. He is all about innovation and technology and pushing into the future.

Bob Book (15:30): But what I really love about the way this movie starts and always have one thing Go ahead.

Brad Gee (15:34): About Jeff Bridges. Just as an actor, if you ever like thought to yourself, alright, I'm I'm casting for a role, and I need somebody who feels like a little bit sleazy but maybe genuine genuine to, like, come up next to somebody, grab them by the shoulder, and draw them in. Jeff Bridges is your guy.

Unknown Speaker (15:56): Jeff Bridges. Like, I know that's

Brad Gee (15:57): a very specific moment. I can't think of a single actor in the history of acting who does that better than Jeff Bridges.

Bob Book (16:06): I I mean, I was gonna save the acting stuff for a little bit later, but like, let's just talk Jeff Bridges for a second. He has won an Academy Award for best actor since this movie has come out. And I think it's well deserved. And I don't think people I don't think he's always top of mind for people when it comes to like one of our great actors. Yeah.

Bob Book (16:24): In fact, would even think that because he doesn't work at the same rate as somebody like a Jeff Daniels, if you were gonna say Jeff and good actor, someone might think Jeff Daniels first. Jeff Bridges is truly one of our best, most unsung actors. And he is probably 90% of the reason that this movie works for me. If you put a different actor in that part, the movie it's a cheesy movie to begin with. I think it becomes like eye rollingly Oscar bait Yes.

Bob Book (16:55): In anyone else's hands besides Jeff Bridges.

Brad Gee (16:58): Yep. A thousand percent. He brings so much sincerity to the character that you fall in love with everyone else because of him. Like, even Elizabeth Banks. I really like Elizabeth Banks.

Brad Gee (17:10): She is giving an absolute nothing burger of a role here. She even has an awkward part at the end where so plot point, Jeff Bridges' son dies while he and his wife are, like, driving to San Fran and as he tells him, like, go outside, drive the truck, go fishing. And so his eight year old son goes to drive the truck and go fishing and dies. And they pull no punches in showing Jeff Bridges holding his dead child. Oh, like

Unknown Speaker (17:40): I mean, it really hits you like a sucker punch, dude.

Unknown Speaker (17:44): But he has this little toy that he plays with. It's like a ball rolling thing that you get the balls in. Elizabeth Banks near the end of the movie, like, sees him playing with it and goes, you know, I play with this too sometimes. As if it was her child that died. Right.

Unknown Speaker (18:03): Right. You know? What is happening? What I'm trying to say is

Unknown Speaker (18:07): go through my belongings, lady. Yeah. Maybe let that stay in my pocket where I keep it.

Brad Gee (18:11): To be clear, Elizabeth Banks, not this child's mother. Jeff Bridges gets divorced and then remarries Elizabeth Banks.

Bob Book (18:21): Elizabeth Banks. Clearly supposed to be Mexican in this movie. Yep. And she's just like at one point, she's just like, mucho gusto. And I'm like, no.

Unknown Speaker (18:31): Nope. You didn't even try an accent? Like, what are we doing?

Brad Gee (18:34): The whole point of that rabbit trail was to say the script's not always the best here. Yep. But even when the script is not at its best, Jeff Bridges has a warmth to him that when he takes Chris Cooper by the shoulder and pulls him in for a nice little conversation and goes and speaks Chris Cooper's words back to him. You know, we don't throw life away just because we don't see its value. Yep.

Brad Gee (19:00): Just the absolute epitome of like heartwarming in all the best ways why we love babies. And

Bob Book (19:10): I'll throw back to that first time that that said. So they all have their personal tragedies. Jeff Bridges' son dies. He's left alone when his wife leaves him after that. And he goes to Mexico to try to find himself again, marries Elizabeth Banks.

Bob Book (19:24): She gets him into this idea of owning horses, and that's how he finds Chris Cooper. And in the movie, Chris Cooper is living out in the field with a horse that he's tending to. And his death tragedy was wandering out. He that the the fences got put up. Fences are his tragedy.

Unknown Speaker (19:42): Yeah. This is these are all equivalent things. Right? The death of a child Fences.

Unknown Speaker (19:47): Being sold into slavery as a child.

Bob Book (19:48): Being sold. Fences. So Jeff Bridges goes wandering out to this guy's campsite one night and Chris Cooper this is why you hire Chris Cooper because his his part is very minimal as well. But that one scene where they're sitting across the fire from each other and Jeff Bridges is asking him like, why are you tending to that horse? And he just says, because I can.

Bob Book (20:11): And then there's this kind of pregnant pause and you can see Chris Cooper's character getting a little antsy. Like he doesn't know how to talk to another person because he's been dealing with the effects of the depression. And he's just kind of staring into the fire and clenching his jaw. And he's almost speaking it like an affirmation to himself. Like you don't throw a life away just because it's banged up a little.

Bob Book (20:34): And they let it just linger for a while. And Jeff Bridges doesn't say anything in response to it. And just says like, is that coffee over there? And it's like, it's an acting masterclass between both of those. It's such a good scene.

Bob Book (20:48): It's maybe the best scene in the whole movie, and it's not even like one of the big showy scenes.

Brad Gee (20:53): No. And just the way Chris Cooper like pours it, and then as he's like finishing pouring, he

Unknown Speaker (20:59): just goes, it's real bad,

Brad Gee (21:00): and hands it to him. And it's almost his like acknowledgment of like, yeah, we both know it's really bad. Man, like Exactly. We we we understand the relationship here. I think the problem with that moment is that they've set up Chris Cooper as this kind of reclusive, like, you know, weird horse whisperer guy.

Brad Gee (21:19): But then for the rest of the movie, he just immediately has on, like, all the, like, overcoats and like nineteen thirties fancy type of clothes. And they never once returned to the fact that he's kind of

Bob Book (21:32): this like weird horse whisperer guy. I I do like though that there's like some unacknowledged things. At one point, you know, Chris Cooper goes to Jeff Bridges character and is like, I quit. I can't do this anymore because you're making a media circus out of this. And it's clear that Jeff Bridges is at some sort of society event at a horse track.

Bob Book (21:53): And there's an exit out to the concourse, and there's a velvet rope. There's a stanchion there and it and Chris Cooper's not allowed to cross it. You look at Jeff Bridges tuxedo and then you look at very nice clothes on Chris Cooper, but still working man's clothes. And so there's this there is this tacit acknowledgement of class throughout the movie, not in a way that beats you over the head or makes anybody out to be the villain, which I really like. Yes.

Bob Book (22:20): And if I can kind of throw us back to where I was going at the beginning here, I love the way this movie is set up and the way the movie starts, which is the opposite of what you expect. The very first line of this movie is a voiceover from what sounds like a sixty minutes, you know, segment. Yeah. And it's just the narrator who says, They called it the car for every man. And you get this two minute introduction about the rise of the Model T and how the rise of the Model T signaled a shift in American culture that They don't say it led to the Great Depression, but the end of that little clip of narration, the narrator says, It was the beginning and the end of imagination all at the same time.

Bob Book (23:08): And it really sets the tone, not just for what the movie becomes about, which is how a country that had been kind of betrayed through this desire for innovation and technology when it all came crashing down, found something in the old ways to latch onto to give them hope. And I find that it's done really, really elegantly. How throughout the movie, they continue to like take breaks from the action of Seabiscuit to kind of check-in on what's happening societally. And so how the rise and the struggles of Seabiscuit continue to parallel the country's recovery. And that's It really helps sell when you finally start getting into the race scenes and they're like, people are showing up for your little horse.

Bob Book (23:56): It doesn't seem forced and it doesn't seem cheesy because you're getting like what feels like historical context throughout the movie. I just thought it was a great touch.

Brad Gee (24:05): Yeah. No. I think that the opening of the movie, it is a rare example of, like, a movie that takes a long time to kind of open up that I don't mind as much. I do think without the credits, this is a two hour and twelve minute movie. I think it could be an hour and fifty to an hour and fifty five minute movie, and that would serve it beautifully.

Brad Gee (24:28): Like, cut out fifteen or so minutes, twenty minutes, and this movie be goes like it really levels up. But as it is, the opening sequence really does establish the stakes for each person that you care about in this movie and even for the horse. Like, the way that they set up Seabiscuit, and he's the grandson of this, like, very famous one of the most famous horses of all time, and the father was a great runner. And and the difficulties that they had, what Gary Ross does as a as the director, he sets you up to identify with Seabiscuit to be like, yeah. Like, I wasn't always given the best chance in life, or maybe I didn't have the right influences to help me be best at what I wanted to be best at.

Brad Gee (25:15): And so they make all of the characters regardless of, like, income or socioeconomic level or status as a human or a horse. Through all of it, they're like, these are really relatable characters who are working together to create something that none of them could have created on their own. And like that, like, you talked earlier about a good American movie celebrating American values. I'm like that. That right there.

Brad Gee (25:46): Yeah. Like, cool, interesting people who have been through hard times that don't just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. They come together to do something way cooler than any of them could have done on their own.

Bob Book (25:59): Yeah. And, you know, Brad, we talked so many times about our history and, you know, personal belief systems and how we're both Christian people. And you can never fully divorce the story of religion from the story of America. No matter how you try, whether you think that it was founded that way or it wasn't, you have to grapple with it. Yeah.

Bob Book (26:21): And I think that there is something inherently interesting in a movie that suggests that when America's hopes were dashed by the promise of progress and technology, they latched onto something that was so improbable that it had to be miraculous for it to happen. Do you know what I mean? There is this purely American ideal of yearning and hope, and a hope that extends beyond reason. Yeah. And so when you have a movie like Seabiscuit or Cinderella Man, I think even more so Seabiscuit though, because you have that great line about like, are horses too small?

Bob Book (27:07): Are jockeys too big? Yep. Are trainers too old? And I'm too dumb to know the difference. But like, there's no reason this horse should have ever won any races.

Bob Book (27:15): By the time they even get Seabiscuit, it's already three years old. If you know anything about horse racing, like the Kentucky Derby is run by three year old horses. Anything over that and you're like, you're, you know, you're over the hill now. Yep. Seabiscuit didn't even start really racing in earnest, you know, as a winner until three plus years old.

Bob Book (27:34): And so then to to take on war admiral and win, and then to break its leg, survive that, and come back and win Santa Anita with a jockey who also had a debilitating And the funny thing is, I was looking at articles about this movie and asking what was inaccurate. There are some small inaccuracies. Apparently when they raised war admiral, Pollard was the jockey. He hadn't had his accident yet, but they thought it would be better to bring in George Wolfe as a character. Sure.

Bob Book (28:05): But the way that it unfolded historically with the leg breaks at the same time and the recovery at the same time and then winning Santa Anita, that all really happened. That's one of those things where you're just like, I can't You can't write something like that because it's too improbable. And this is a long winded way of me saying that's the sort of American story that resonates with me. That's why I love a movie like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, because there's something about not just overcoming impossible odds through your own creativity or pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, but to have the hope in something that is so unlikely and improbable that it has to be miraculous is is the thing that ties it to the story of America to me.

Brad Gee (28:51): Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, you can look at the story of America and say, yeah. That is the story of our birth as a nation. Like, the greatest navy in the world with one of the greatest land armies in the world that we faced down and defeated to establish ourselves as a country of our own that has a self determining nature. Like, yeah, stories like Seabiscuit, like Cinderella Man, those are going to be the ones that resonate with our cultural soul to say, hey, when we put our minds to it and we're down and out, we can do anything.

Brad Gee (29:28): Like, we're never truly down and out. And I think that's why for so many people during the great depression, stories like this really mattered.

Bob Book (29:37): Yeah. Well, Brad, I think it's time for us to pivot into our whiskey for the day. We're gonna do something a little bit different because the Kentucky Derby is obviously known for mint juleps. Mint juleps being a very simple and easy drink to make that, you know, people of any socioeconomic class can have. We've talked about mint juleps multiple times on this podcast before, so we're not gonna walk through how to build a mint julep.

Bob Book (30:02): This is something we could really easily point you to. But I do think, Brad, that I wanna get into something a little controversial here. Oh. Which is that they're okay. Mint juleps are just okay.

Brad Gee (30:15): Dude Can we be honest here? I don't love mint juleps. That, like, there's something about it. Like like, yes, there's a pageantry do it. You you slap the mint and all the things.

Brad Gee (30:27): At the end of the day, mint is not the best flavor for mixed drinks, in my opinion. Like, obviously, flavor is always dependent on the person. I just think that, like, it's there's a very small line between the right amount of mint and too much mint. And it's kinda similar to like a banana dessert where you're like, banana's a great flavor, but you only need a hint of it. Otherwise, it overwhelms the entire dessert.

Brad Gee (30:54): So I do think

Bob Book (30:55): that there is like there's a very obvious connection to like, okay. It's it's hot in the South. You got crushed ice and mint, which is just an inherently cooling effect. I totally understand that. I will say though that it basically just tastes like a less complex, more watered down old fashioned.

Bob Book (31:13): Yeah. Because you don't really have bitters in there. It's just simple or granulated sugar and bourbon and mint. Now, what I would highly suggest upgrading to, and what I think in the next century we should pivot the Kentucky Derby towards, is the Kentucky mule, which is A 10 times mule is just so good. Easy to make cocktail.

Bob Book (31:32): And you garnish it with a sprig of mint. So you can put as much or as little mint in there as you want. You

Brad Gee (31:36): know? Yeah. Yeah. Bob Bob out here is like calling for the downfall of the mint industry. Like, what are they gonna do without all

Bob Book (31:43): the mint juleps? Peter came I'm for my coming for the mint. Listen, I will say though that in prep for this episode, I did my due diligence and I made a mint julep. And I wanna talk a little bit about the Blackwood Toasted one zero five bourbon. We are not currently sponsored by Blackwood.

Bob Book (32:01): They have sponsored us in the past, but I wanted to try this particular bottle in a mint julep because I think what we have found, Brad, is that anywhere from that 100 to like 107 range is the perfect cocktail. Yeah. Proofpoint.

Unknown Speaker (32:17): It really is.

Bob Book (32:17): Like, 90, especially if you're putting crushed ice on top of it, it can get really watered down, really diluted. And I have to say, man, I'm not always the biggest fan of toasted finishes, but when you're adding something like a simple syrup, it counteracts that sometimes bitter or sour flavor you get from toasted oak. And it really does take it to the next level. So I have to say, I'm gonna sip on this toasted 105 bourbon, which we may or may not have actually reviewed on the show before. And I'll give you a few notes on it, but I have to say Blackwood knocked it out of the park with this because this is by far their most accessible bottle, but it also makes a hell of a mint julep.

Brad Gee (32:58): Yeah. So I also made a mint julep, Bob, and I switched it up a little bit because at the end of the day, this isn't really gonna be a mint julep, but I did use mint. I used the Blackwood one zero five rye, which is so freaking good. I love rye's.

Bob Book (33:16): I think first of all, we did not even coordinate on which whiskey we were gonna use here. So No. Nice. You picked you picked Blackwood as well.

Brad Gee (33:24): One zero five rye, and I muddled like four or five blackberries with the mint. And blackberry, mint, rye Mhmm. Made for a really interesting mixed drink. Still not like a top tier I'm with you, Kentucky mule. Oh my goodness.

Brad Gee (33:43): Yeah. But the blackberry gave it a little bit of that juiciness and and just a little bit different of a flavor that the mint felt like an accent rather than the main thing. So if you're ever looking to upgrade your mint tulip, throw a little blackberries in there.

Bob Book (33:58): There it is. Or just add some ginger beer to it and call it a day. Because I really do think a mule is just a top tier thing. You know, Blackwood, thank you for your past sponsorships on the show. You're not currently sponsoring us, but I'll give you a plug anyway.

Bob Book (34:13): The one zero five series, the rye and the bourbon apparently. Brad tried the rye. Lights out. Fantastic in a cocktail. Great to drink neat.

Bob Book (34:22): If you want to add a little bit of complexity to a mint julep, you could do a lot worse than that one.

Unknown Speaker (34:27): Yeah.

Bob Book (34:27): Brad, let's talk about Seabiscuit a little bit more. And, you know, we talked about Jeff Bridges. We've talked about Chris Cooper and Elizabeth Banks, which means there's only one person really in this cast left to talk about. Toby. Our friend.

Unknown Speaker (34:43): Wait. Was Was that an iron band your reference? Hair Why so red, Toby? We did oh, we needed the Jeff Bridges voice. Yes.

Bob Book (34:53): Toby, you can't ride a horse. Your leg is broken, Toby. Alright, man. Let's talk about Tobey Maguire, a man who we have only talked about in one other film so far on this podcast, and that is Spider Man 2,002.

Unknown Speaker (35:11): This was his follow-up to We haven't reviewed Spider Man two yet?

Unknown Speaker (35:15): No. We have not. Bob, what are we Season eleven. Maybe it'll come. You know?

Bob Book (35:19): Oh my goodness. Guy, Tobey Maguire, 2002 Spider Man, 2003 Seabiscuit, 2004 Spider Man two. Top of the world, this man is on.

Unknown Speaker (35:27): That's Like That's a pretty good run for a pretty bad actor.

Bob Book (35:30): I mean, listen. You can think whatever you want about Seabiscuit. This movie was nominated for best picture. Like, my guy was living the dream from 2002 to 2004. For a

Unknown Speaker (35:40): few years.

Bob Book (35:40): Here's the thing about Tobey Maguire is that I don't don't mean this in a disparaging way. He is somewhat limited as an actor. And that's not that I think he has limited tools as an actor. It's that sometimes you just have a certain face and a certain demeanor, and that face and demeanor only allows you to play so many parts. It's kind of like Joseph Gordon Levitt.

Bob Book (36:03): You know what Like, I when they had him trying to play Robin in The Dark Knight Rises. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that makes perfect sense. But then the way that they tried to portray it is like this tough guy cop. I was like, he's not it.

Bob Book (36:14): Joseph Gordon Levitt is five foot four. Like, what are we what

Brad Gee (36:16): are we doing here? He is singing with animated bluebirds.

Bob Book (36:20): Yes. Right. Come on. And I I think of Tobey Maguire. He's the perfect Peter Parker.

Bob Book (36:26): And in some ways, he's the perfect red pollard because, yes, he's an angry young man, you know, different than Peter, but he's also like he's a jockey. Like, he's a diminutive guy. And I think the real Tobey Maguire is not that short. I don't know how tall he is. He's definitely not jockey sized.

Bob Book (36:42): Let's take a look. I think this is in his wheelhouse, and watching movies like this where you see him in his wheelhouse, it's really refreshing, but it also kinda reminds me that like he can't really go outside that wheelhouse very much.

Brad Gee (36:56): Yeah. And his wheelhouse is if he's angry, he's compelling. When he's not angry and he's talking to another human being, he's a mannequin at best. Like, he just has so his face moves so little. I really struggle with Toby as an actor.

Brad Gee (37:17): I I think some of his best moments in this movie are when he's, like, on the horse and he's, like, whispering, like, come on, pops. Let's go. Like like, those moments where you're not looking at his face and you just have his voice, I like, I think there's something to be said there.

Unknown Speaker (37:33): Mhmm.

Brad Gee (37:34): Overall, I did not walk away from this movie going, man, I'm reminded why Tobey Maguire was this big for these few years.

Unknown Speaker (37:44): It's like,

Brad Gee (37:46): I I'll come out and say it. I'll be disparaging, Bob. Tobey Maguire's not a good actor. He he's not super talented. I don't know

Bob Book (37:54): if I'd go that far. I just think that, like, you can only have him in a certain type of role, and then he's really good. Not a versatile actor to me, but not a bad actor.

Brad Gee (38:02): Yeah. See, that's the thing. Even Spider Man, which like, I love Spider Man. I love Tobey Maguire as Spider Man. I still go back to that movie and go, the movie's not enhanced because it's Tobey Maguire.

Brad Gee (38:15): He's he's rough in those movies, dude. And I like I said

Unknown Speaker (38:19): I disagree with that.

Brad Gee (38:20): Childhood, I love it. I still come back to those movies over all sorts of other movies. I I have watched Spider Man two since we reviewed it. I have not watched There Will Be Blood since we reviewed it. Like

Unknown Speaker (38:33): There you go.

Unknown Speaker (38:34): I I love Subtobi.

Unknown Speaker (38:35): And that means Spider Man two is a better movie than There Will Be Blood. Right?

Unknown Speaker (38:39): That is what I'm Yep.

Unknown Speaker (38:41): Yeah. A thousand percent. Got

Unknown Speaker (38:42): it. Okay. Come come get your award, Sam Raimi.

Bob Book (38:46): Let's talk a little bit about the craft of this movie, because there is an element of watching a movie now from 2003. And I remember, I don't know why I remember this, but there was an ad that they ran. I guess it was probably during all the horse races that year. And it's the shot where it's like a slow mo shot of Tobey Maguire, like, taking a bundle of flowers after they win a race and he throws them in the air. Yeah.

Bob Book (39:10): And I remember it was a Kodak commercial because they were plugging that Seabiscuit was shot on Kodak film.

Unknown Speaker (39:16): Okay.

Bob Book (39:18): And there is an element of like, I miss the look of film. I miss when we knew how to light movies properly. Like the the dark kind of charcoal gray that everyone's wearing in the stands all the time. It really pops. There's a couple moments where like you see Seabiscuit celebrating on the track, but they cut like way far back and you just see Seabiscuit surrounded by this sea of humanity.

Bob Book (39:42): And it's like, I saw somebody posting on Twitter yesterday about how one of the things that's like a subtle change in movies until you notice it is that there's never any extras in movies anymore. Yeah. Like there's never just a scene with like 5,000 extras. Yes. Because the union rules are different now and things like that.

Bob Book (39:59): But like, there's something so tactile about seeing a movie with real human extras running across the infield rooting for Seabiscuit. Yep. And and I don't think that this movie was was some sort of like prime example of craftsmanship in 2003. It's a well made movie and it was nominated for seven Oscars. But like, it just kinda reminded me, damn, movies used to look and feel like this,

Brad Gee (40:24): and now they don't anymore. Yeah. They they really didn't. And, you know, this wasn't a small budget. It was $87,000,000 to make this movie.

Brad Gee (40:32): So, like, there's, you know, 2,003 money. 87,000,000 is quite a bit. Yep. And you can tell. Like, it's a beautiful movie.

Brad Gee (40:41): The moments when Tobey Maguire is riding Seabiscuit after both of their injuries, And they're just out in this beautiful California rolling hills, autumn scenery. Like, it's just mind blowingly beautiful. And you have this giant wide shot of Seabiscuit just walking down this trail through a bunch of trees that it the leaves are falling, and you're like, the colors just pop in a way that they really don't anymore. And I Yeah. I would agree with you about the extras.

Brad Gee (41:14): Like, you can't fake real human emotion. Like, computers cannot capture it. It's why AI is so dangerous because AI doesn't understand human emotion around really important things. You can't make up extras. And I I think there's something valuable about paying a bunch of people a small amount of money to spend one whole day at a shot sitting in a stadium cheering for horses running around the track.

Unknown Speaker (41:43): It's just Yeah. It's valuable.

Bob Book (41:46): It really is. And I also think that, like, there is a level of craft even behind the scenes in this movie too. Like, first of all, the attention to detail of the nineteen thirties is great. The costuming is incredible. The last outfit that they have Elizabeth Banks in, which is like this navy blue coat, black blouse, the little, like, pointed black I'm like, dude, the thirties, man.

Unknown Speaker (42:07): Looks great.

Bob Book (42:07): How cool people looked. You know? But then there's I remember watching a behind the scenes about this movie and I think Tobey Maguire learned how to ride a horse a little bit, but they obviously weren't putting him in a race environment. So they developed these rigs that were basically like an animatronic horse head. And they had all the actors for the close ups during the races just sit on like a saddle and the head just went up and down.

Bob Book (42:32): And so they could just film them from like head horse head level up. Yeah. And it's super convenient. Like you don't think about it. Now that I know that it's there, I watch it and I'm like, oh, okay.

Bob Book (42:40): I can see that it's just like a machine But they're it's like, it's really convincing. I think that the way that they establish geography throughout the horse races, despite how rapid the cuts are, They do a fantastic job of going between close ups and wide shots and medium shots. And anytime Seabiscuit makes a move and has to weave in between horses, the coverage is there. Like, there's just basic filmmaking technique that I feel like we understood better twenty years ago. At Yeah.

Bob Book (43:10): At no point did I ever think like, how'd he get to there? Wasn't he just in the back? Like, no. You watch him progress. Yep.

Unknown Speaker (43:16): And it's thrilling.

Brad Gee (43:17): And it's well edited. Yeah. And you know that he watched Ben Hur a few times to get ready for this. Mhmm. As anybody who is shooting a horse race should do.

Brad Gee (43:28): And you can you can feel the history of what it means to shoot a horse race in this movie. I I'm with you, man. I I think that you miss so much when you don't have those elements added into the film, And it's hard to go back to movies from 2003 and see it there, and it was just readily available. And, you know, like, once again, it feels like when we talked about Rain Man. Like, Rain Man's not this giant spectacle of a movie that gets put up for best picture.

Brad Gee (44:00): It's just this quiet drama. Seabiscuit is kinda same. Like, we just had movies like this that were up for best picture that were relatively popular. Like, Seabiscuit didn't, like, break the bank at the box office, but it it pulled in good numbers. And it was recognized for its craft and went up for best picture.

Brad Gee (44:18): It just feels like the whole system was a little more holistic than it is nowadays.

Bob Book (44:24): I yeah. Alright, Brad. I think that we've said about all we need to say about Seabiscuit. You know, there's part of me that's like, we should have done a full episode. We should have gone an hour and a half on Seabiscuit.

Bob Book (44:34): But, like, it's a twenty year old movie about horse racing. It's not like this is not gonna be our most downloaded episode of all time. I get that. But I love this movie. And I think that when you get to the end of the movie, is it ten minutes too long?

Bob Book (44:47): Probably. But frankly, they could have cut most of Jeff Bridges and Elizabeth Banks' romance before they get married. Yes. But then Elizabeth Banks would have had thirty seconds on screen in the whole movie. I understand why they left it in.

Bob Book (45:02): But by the time you get to the end, once again, the way that they do that ending where the sound drops out, you think you're gonna get this big joyous, like, he freaking did it. Like he came all the way back and won. And you just get this quiet moment where Tobey Maguire has voiceover. It's the only time in the whole movie where Tobey Maguire has a voiceover. And he's talking about how the horse, they think we fixed the horse, but the horse fixed us.

Bob Book (45:25): And they pan to the crowd and you just see like these no name people, just like ecstatic that like somebody did it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like in the middle of the depression, I'm a freaking puddle. Like I cry hard at the end of this movie.

Bob Book (45:42): Just like I do with Cinderella, man. It's the same experience for me. Yeah. And so like, will I understand if this movie is like a seven for most people? Sure.

Bob Book (45:51): Right now on Letterboxd, it's at a 6.8, which is just not the correct Really? People need to like get a stick out of their ass and like cry a little. But this movie is a nine out of 10 for me. I freaking love this movie. I watch it more often than I cared.

Bob Book (46:06): If it's on cable, I will just stick around and watch the whole rest of the movie. I I love this movie. One of my favorite sports movies of all time. Brett, I'd like to hear your take.

Brad Gee (46:15): Yeah. I mean, I just looked it up. It's a 7.3 on IMDb, which I feel like is more accurate. I will say for me, it's more accurate because I'm at a 7.5 on this. I really enjoy Seabiscuit.

Brad Gee (46:28): It's a fun movie. The big problem I have with it is that they're trying to cover so much material that it's literally just an and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And it Mhmm. It just kinda rolls on with without any regard for what just happened. And so there's there's a lot of moments where you're like, that kinda came out of nowhere.

Brad Gee (46:52): Like like for for what you you said earlier about Chris Cooper quitting. There's like no indication that he is feeling frustrated with the media scrum of it all. And just out of nowhere, it's just like, oh, nope. I'm gonna quit now. And you're like, that's really interesting.

Brad Gee (47:14): So just stuff like that. It's not the best script that's ever been written, but there are some good solid moments throughout the film. I'm like, yeah, this is a really fun sports movie.

Bob Book (47:26): Alright. Well, I think that your I think your score is wrong, but I respect it. That's bringing us to an average of an 8.25 out of 10. I would love to hear if people have watched Seabiscuit. If you're gonna watch it for the first time, let us know what you think.

Bob Book (47:41): Brad, before we get out of here for the day, I have just dropped into our chat here on Riverside the full list of the Kentucky Derby field for this year along with their odds. Now I want you to go through this list, and I want you to pick your winner for the Derby. I've got one in mind, and I only ever pick based on, like, can I see a horse coming around the curve and hear in my head, and it's seed biscuit? Come at like, there's just a name that sticks out. My William criteria.

Unknown Speaker (48:12): William h Macy going, and we've got commandment coming around the

Bob Book (48:15): bend. First of all, a great William h Macy performance.

Brad Gee (48:20): A stunningly good Macy performance. Maybe the best, like, actor that we could have ever asked for.

Bob Book (48:29): Gianotti watched Macy when he was prepping for Cinderella Man.

Brad Gee (48:34): Macy walked so that Gianotti could run.

Unknown Speaker (48:36): So that Gianotti could run.

Brad Gee (48:40): I as I look through this, my immediate draw I've been listening to a artist called Tom Mich lately, and there's a line in one of his songs that goes like this, Bob. I stand protected by the laws of fun. And it's one of my new favorite lines of any song of all time. And when I saw the name right to party, I thought about that line. So I'm gonna I'm gonna choose the 31 to one odds, number five racing,

Bob Book (49:11): One right to of the longest odds in the whole field. We've got a couple in the fifties, a couple in the forties. There's 20 horses currently in the field because it looks like one scratched. I never pick the favorite because that's no fun. No.

Bob Book (49:25): So I'll pick somewhere in that two to like seven range. And among those, I really like Commandment. Commandment is just a great horse name. Yep. I mean, there's a couple others that are great name.

Bob Book (49:38): Emerging Market is a great name for a horse. Further ado, that's a great name for a horse.

Unknown Speaker (49:44): Chief Wallaby.

Bob Book (49:45): Chief Wallaby is not winning this race, bro. Market down. Chief Wallaby hater right here.

Unknown Speaker (49:54): Hey, man. I'm just here for your right to I'm just here for your right to party, Bob.

Unknown Speaker (49:58): Have we mentioned that this is brought to you by FanDuel this this episode?

Unknown Speaker (50:02): It should have been.

Bob Book (50:03): That does it for us here today on Film and Whiskey. We wanna know what you think of Seabiscuit. We wanna know what you think of Mint Juleps and the Kentucky Derby. Brad, where can the people find us to talk back to us?

Brad Gee (50:14): Man, you can find us everywhere, Bob. You can find us on Instagram, X, Facebook, at Film Whiskey.

Bob Book (50:22): Or you could jump onto our Discord server. We are on there probably not as often as we should be. We need to resurrect the Discord, and we probably need you guys to help us do that. We've got a dedicated number of posters there in the Discord, but I think the Kentucky Derby is a good little prompt to throw in there. So you can find the link to our Discord server at the end of every single one of our show notes.

Bob Book (50:46): Folks, we'll be back in a couple weeks with another bonus episode to keep you satiated until the start of season number eleven. But until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time.