Charlie Chaplin vs. America: A Talk with Author Scott Eyman

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Today on the Film and Whiskey
Podcast, we're revisiting one of

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our favorite directors of the
season as we chat with author

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Scott Eyman about his new book
on the life and films of Charlie

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Chaplin.
That's all ahead on the Film and

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Whiskey Podcast.
Well, hey there, everybody.

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Welcome into the Film and
Whiskey Podcast.

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I'm Bob Book.
I'm Brad G, and we're coming at

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you with another special bonus
episode.

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Bonus episode Brad.
Last week I went to my mailbox

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and I opened it up.
And you know, one of the

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benefits of doing a whiskey
related podcast is that

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sometimes your mailbox is full
of booze.

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And I had a package.
Very true.

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I had a package in the mailbox
and it was not booze.

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I said what is I can't drink
this?

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What is this thing?
And it was a book, Brad.

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It's a book that we specifically
requested too because it is a

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super fascinating new book by
the author Scott Eyman.

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The book is called Charlie
Chaplin Versus America When Art,

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Sex and Politics Collided.
We had just done a series on

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Charlie Chaplin and we kind of
hinted at some of his personal

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life and how it bled into his
work and how we look at his work

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in in response to that.
And lo and behold, Simon and

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Schuster is putting out this new
major work about the Life and

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Times of Charlie Chaplin and
Brad.

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Spoiler alert, we're going to
talk about that book today.

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We sure are, and we are joined
by author of said book, Scott

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Ayman.
And I will say this, he has

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written so much and been so
influential as a film historian

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that.
His bio takes up two paragraphs.

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So how about I take the first
one, You take the second one,

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Bob.
Does that sound good?

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It sounds great, man.
Let's tag team it.

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Yeah, so Scott, as I said, he is
a film historian and author of

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best selling biographies on the
golden age of Hollywood,

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including, and this is Scott.
We'll we'll have to talk about

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this later.
Well, after the interview, my

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favorite actor of all time, Cary
Grant.

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He's written biographies on John
Wayne, Cecil B DeMille, John

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Ford, Louis B Mayer, Henry Fonda
and Jimmy Stewart.

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Yeah, Scott's also worked as a
book editor and art critic for

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the Palm Beach Post.
He's a reviewer for the Wall

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Street Journal, Film Comments,
The New York Observer.

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He's had articles published in
the New York Times, The

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Washington Post, the Chicago
Tribune.

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You know, basically all the
major players at this point.

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Brad.
I've never heard of him, Bob.

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You might have even caught him
on TVA couple weeks ago.

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I just watched him introduce 4
films on Charlie Chaplin on

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Turner Classic Movies.
Scott, it is great to have you

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here.
Oh, thanks for inviting me guys.

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It's.
It's good to be on a show with

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such an enticing title.
Yeah, we try.

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We get right to the point.
We we often find that that our

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guests enjoy the Whiskey Ave.
just as much as the film.

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If you have a lot of writers on
that, that they'll definitely

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opt for the whiskey.
Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.
All right, Scott, let's dive

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right in talking about this
book.

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First of all, thank you for
writing this.

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It's a, it's a phenomenal piece
of writing.

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And you know, it's as
suspenseful as it is

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informative, I have to say.
Thanks.

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Thanks.
It was a.

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It's a.
It was a tough narrative to keep

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straight because there's four or
five things going on at the same

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time a lot of the time.
So it's about a fairly

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compressed period in his life.
And there were times when I

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thought, OK, I'm losing the
thread here.

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You know, you have to go back
and make sure it has clarity

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because clarity is crucial with
a story like this.

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Well, I think that's a great
segue into my first question.

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So this really hyper focuses on
one period of Chaplin's life and

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that is his exile from America
post war.

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And I'm wondering, as a
biographer, how do you decide or

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like, you know, especially with
this period in Chaplin's life,

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how did you identify that this
was kind of the lens through

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which to look at the rest of his
life and career?

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Well, in one sense it was it it
it felt inevitable To me.

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It was the culmination of of
decades of his political

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beliefs.
His sexual behavior, his

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aesthetic contract with his
audience and hit with his own

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self-image.
Chaplin was not a man to trim

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his sails.
No matter what he was told by

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smart people he was going to go
ahead with what he thought was

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the right thing to do from hell
or high water.

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His whole life pointed him
towards towards that point of

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view he had the catastrophic
childhood.

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Which basically taught him, if
it could be boiled down to one

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thing, it was that you can't
depend on anybody but yourself.

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And he was lucky in that he had
a brother that he adored and who

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adored him in return.
And Sidney, his brother, who was

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two years older, was always
there for Charlie, and Charlie

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was as as much there for Sidney
as was humanly possible as well.

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So they each had each other in a
very close bond.

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But still, Sidney was also a
comedian.

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Of of some skill and in some
success.

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So it had to be difficult for
him on on some level to have a A

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a brother who was Hale, was a
genius and is a extraordinary

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primary artist of the 20th
century.

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But you never know it.
From his letters he was just

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100% on Charlie's team.
But Charlie, with very few

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exceptions, didn't trust society
at large.

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Didn't trust the things people
said.

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You can only trust the things
people did.

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And in his experience, people
acted basically out of

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self-interest.
If you couldn't do them any

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good, they tended to ignore you,
not necessarily step on your

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face with their boot heel, but
they weren't going to expend a

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huge amount of effort on your
behalf.

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So he early on learned that you
had to depend on nobody but

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yourself.
So as a result, he allowed very

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few people in.
He had very few intimate

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friends.
He had one close friend, close

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male friend, Douglas Fairbanks,
Senior Douglas Fairbanks died

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young.
It was in his 50s in 1939 and

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after that he never really had
another close male friend.

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He had employees that were there
for decades.

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He was very loyal to and they
were very loyal to him.

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But intimate friendships?
Not really, no, no.

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He he was very much
self-directed and self oriented.

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Until he met his last wife when
O'Neill Chaplin.

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He gave himself over to another
human being completely, probably

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for the first time in his life.
And I I think that's what's like

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so fascinating for me about this
book is that, you know, before

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you even get to the table of
contents, you have a a a quote

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from him.
And I'll read just a tiny bit of

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it, where he says my ego edits
my life more than any moral

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code.
And I would never do anything to

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shame it, for I have to live
with myself.

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And I think that as I've been
reading your book, the

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psychological profile of Chaplin
is just fascinating, you know,

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And as you said, you were
pulling all the different

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threads of these narratives
swirling about his life, the

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ability to stay connected to his
psychological profile.

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And you know, as you said, how
at the end of his life he's with

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Uno O'Neill and.
And it seems to be the first

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person he's ever opened himself
up to.

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I I mean that just that makes
for compelling reading, Scott.

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Well thanks.
Thanks.

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The the the relationship with
Una is really I think indicates

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his character in a way that
nothing else does because the

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reason that the relationship was
they were married.

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She was 18 when they married.
He was 53, I believe 53 or 54.

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And nobody was suspicious about
it at all.

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No, no, no, no.
Nobody.

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Nobody raised an eyebrow.
Nobody was upset.

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No, not.
But the reason they had they

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were married for the rest of his
life.

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They were basically idyllically
happy.

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They had eight children
together.

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The reason it worked was because
each of them gave the other what

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they've been looking for their
entire life.

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O'Neill was the daughter of
Eugene O'Neill, who was a

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bastard.
Great writer, but a bastard.

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And he had basically taken a
dislike to the child, all of his

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children.
He had two sons and a daughter.

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And he was really never a part
of any of their lives to speak

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of.
And he regarded them as mistakes

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or with disdain that seems
completely out of proportion to

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who they actually were.
Both of his sons committed

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suicide.
Una was saved by her marriage to

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Chaplain.
What Una gave Chaplain was

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complete acceptance, and for who
he was and what he was.

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She didn't try to change him.
She didn't try to mold him.

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She didn't try to make him into
something he wasn't.

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He was a man in middle, the
middle years.

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By that time she understood that
he was a workaholic and

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compulsive, and if he didn't get
his his work, in his writing, in

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his filmmaking, in whatever
happened to be doing at that

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moment, he didn't feel he'd
earned his dinner because that

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was the way he was raised.
He raised himself, and in return

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he gave her complete acceptance
as well, which she'd never been

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able to get from her father.
So it was a perfect perfect.

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Match in terms of their emotion,
each of their emotional needs.

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Well, if I can, if I can, go
from a complete acceptance with

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his, his, his last wife to
complete rejection.

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I mean the the way the book is
centered on this crucial moment

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in Chaplin's life when he goes
to take his film basically on

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tour in Europe and then is
denied entry into the United

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States and essentially never
returns except for when he

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collects his honorary Oscar in
the 1970s.

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It seems that the tipping point
though comes in the early 1940s

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and I believe it's 1942 you say
in the book Chaplains basically

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starts advocating for a second
front in World War 2,

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essentially to support Russia,
and the FBI takes that as I

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guess the the nail in the coffin
to start investigating him and

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they write a 2000, almost 2000
page dossier on him.

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I'm wondering what was it about
that specific stance that tipped

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the FBI into investigating him
when there had been rumors for

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years?
What was it about that public

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stance that that became the
tipping point?

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They had.
They'd opened a file on him in

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1922.
Because he'd been attending some

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socialist meetings in Los
Angeles, he had neglected to

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welcome Will Hayes to Los
Angeles when Will Hayes was

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named the Tsar.
The movies.

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In order to forestall censorship
because of a series of scandals

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that have broken out into
Hollywood, so the industry felt

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they had to do something to
defuse it.

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So they brought in Will Hayes,
who had been in the cabinet of

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Warren G Harding, which is of
course tantamount to being a

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criminal as to run a kind of
loosely defined oversee

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production of films.
Censorship, in essence.

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Chaplin had greeted this with a
a great deal of sardonic humor,

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which got the attention of what
became the FBI and they and they

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they opened a file on him, but
nothing really came of it.

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Things heated up in in the late
1930s there were some people

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that felt Modern Times was
politically on the edge.

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I think it was, but people
really started paying attention

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in in the late 1930s when he
began production on The Great

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Dictator.
The film comes out in October of

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1940, at a time when both the
public and the Congress are

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isolationist by a considerable
amount.

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There was no interest on the
part of the American public or

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of the American government
outside of the White House.

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Franklin Roosevelt to get
involved in either the problems

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of Europe or the problems of
Jews of Europe.

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Chaplin felt otherwise.
He felt that immigrants needed

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to be welcomed.
And he felt that Hitler had to

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be confronted directly, in spite
of the fact that the Motion

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Picture Association didn't want
the film made.

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The British Foreign Office
didn't want the film made

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because at the time Neville
Chamberlain was the Prime

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Minister and he was trying to
basically buy Hitler off and

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avoid World War 2.
So Chaplain went ahead and did

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00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,600
what he always did, which is
what he thought was the best

228
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,320
thing to do.
He financed the film personally,

229
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,080
which he had been doing since
1918.

230
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,480
All those films were self
financed.

231
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,280
That way nobody could tell him
what to do and nobody could edit

232
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,800
his films with him and nobody
could release his films in any

233
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,800
way they wanted except him.
So he financed the film himself

234
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,280
and it was a considerable
critical and commercial success

235
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,960
in spite of everybody saying it
was going to be a disaster.

236
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,360
But by making the film, in spite
of all the objections and all

237
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,560
the resistance, Chaplin had
branded himself as a premature

238
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:09,800
anti fascist.
And there's nothing worse.

239
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,560
In American politics than being
a premature anti fascist and and

240
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,160
and at that point the FBI
started sniffing around.

241
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,720
They started sniffing around
obviously.

242
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,360
So about 18 months later, after
Pearl Harbor, when the Russia,

243
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,640
Russia was now our ally in the
fight against Hitler and Chaplin

244
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,120
began making speeches advocating
the opening of a second front to

245
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,160
aid our Russian allies in
fighting fascism, certainly

246
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,080
within conservative movement.
In Congress and in the public at

247
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,760
large, it was regarded as a non
starter because they simply

248
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,440
didn't regard Russia as, as ever
being able to be our ally.

249
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,360
They could only be our enemy in
waiting, and Chaplin argued that

250
00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,000
they may very well be our enemy
in waiting, but at this moment

251
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,960
in time, at this moment in
history, they're our ally and we

252
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,440
have to make sure they don't
lose that, or really any, he

253
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:09,800
began making a series of
speeches.

254
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,040
Advocating the opening of the
2nd and the FBI began taking

255
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,880
dictation.
They began going to these

256
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,120
speeches and noting what was
said and noting who else was at

257
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,960
the meetings.
Sometimes they were left

258
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,160
wingers, sometimes they weren't,
but they basically began

259
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,840
surveilling.
And all this is, as I said,

260
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,960
1940, two 1943.
While all this is going on, he

261
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,520
also gets embroiled in a
paternity suit.

262
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,040
In a with a woman that he's been
having an affair with.

263
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,040
After the release of The Great
Dictator, he got involved with a

264
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,680
young woman named Joan Berry.
She was 22 or 23.

265
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,880
She had been the mistress of J
Paul Getty in Oklahoma before

266
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,600
this.
She thought it would be fun to

267
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,240
be in the movies.
Got a letter of introduction.

268
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,720
Came to Los Angeles to meet
people in the movie industry.

269
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,720
Got introduced to Chaplin.
One thing led to another.

270
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,800
They were together for about a
year.

271
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,000
They broke up.
She came back.

272
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:15,480
Some months later to LA and said
she was pregnant and he did the

273
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,560
math and he realized that he
couldn't be the father.

274
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,680
She insisted he was the father.
Then she went to Hedda Hopper,

275
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,280
and at that point the wheels of
injustice began to grind because

276
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,920
Hedda Hopper had had a how to
put this delicate hard on about

277
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,040
Charlie Chaplin?
Well, and just real quick, Hedda

278
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,400
Hopper being probably the most
famous gossip columnist in in

279
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,440
Hollywood.
Right.

280
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,600
There's nobody like, remotely in
that league now.

281
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,400
But I mean, she was syndicated
through the Los Angeles Times

282
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,560
Syndicate to hundreds and
hundreds of newspapers.

283
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,560
Everybody, daily column,
everybody read her.

284
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,200
She was also she was a former
actress, a character actress.

285
00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,080
But she was saved by the Los
Angeles Times, who had her start

286
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,520
writing a column, and it turned
out.

287
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,960
She was a good columnist and she
knew everybody in Hollywood and

288
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,080
she had an edge.
And she was also extremely

289
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,080
conservative.
I call her the Madame Defarge of

290
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,880
the Red Scare.
So she disliked chaplain on

291
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,960
political grounds and she
disliked chaplain on sexual

292
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,280
grounds because Hetta Hopper's
back story was very specific.

293
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,920
She's been married to a man in
De Wolf Hopper who is a well

294
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,280
known vaudeville star in Rouet
with the five or six wives.

295
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,040
And he was much older than her.
And they married, and he dumped

296
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,600
her, leaving her with a child
and no visible means of support.

297
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,640
But because of her own
background as well as her

298
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,760
political beliefs, Chaplin
checked all the boxes, and she

299
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,360
went after him with a vengeance.
And she enlisted other columnist

300
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,880
who had similar political
affiliations to go after him

301
00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,160
with a vengeance.
So before you knew it, you had.

302
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:06,560
The Chicago Tribune syndicate
filling their daily pages with

303
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,839
anti chaplain columns and
articles.

304
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,280
The Los Angeles Times syndicate.
The Hearst papers.

305
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,280
Three major newspaper chains.
At a time when newspapers were

306
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,839
the way people got all their
information and people began to

307
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,280
think what about this chaplain
guy?

308
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,560
He never became a citizen and
here he is saying we should be

309
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,160
in bed with Russia.
And here he is with all these

310
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,920
young girls and so forth and so
on.

311
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,480
And then at that point Chaplain
married O'Neill, who was 18 and

312
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,680
he was 53 or 54, and that seemed
to confirm everything that was

313
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,160
being brooded about in the
newspapers, all these, these

314
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,200
domino and the dominoes began to
fall, and the public at large,

315
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,440
who had always basically gone
wherever Charlie Chaplin LED.

316
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,760
But finally, the combination of
his political beliefs, his lack

317
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,720
of citizenship and the paternity
suit began to turn the public

318
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,120
against him.
And it didn't really change.

319
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:10,960
Even when he took a blood test
and the blood test proved that

320
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,640
he was not the father of the
child, he lost the case.

321
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,600
He lost the paternity case.
His appeals were denied.

322
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,680
So he had to start paying child
support for a child that wasn't

323
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,680
his.
And you can imagine how that

324
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,640
made him feel.
Well and it it all culminates

325
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,640
in, you know you you go into
great detail in the book,

326
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,040
especially about Hopper
petitioning Richard Nixon who

327
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,640
was on the, you know, coming up
in the political scene about to

328
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,720
run for vice president.
And it culminates in chaplain

329
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,040
getting barred from entry into
the US and he really is on an

330
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,000
island.
And you There's a really

331
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,960
interesting tidbit that the only
three people in Hollywood where

332
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,360
he was king for decades that
came to his defense were Samuel

333
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,560
Goldwyn, Cary Grant and William
Wyler, and they publicly decried

334
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,040
what was happening to him.
Did he have a personal

335
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,760
relationship with any of those
three?

336
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,480
And to what extent was that
relationship?

337
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,000
He and Goldwyn went back to the
20s.

338
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000
They were friends, not intimate
friends.

339
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,880
I mean, they didn't hang around
socially particularly.

340
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,400
Goldman was a strange character,
and Chaplin was a strange

341
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,240
character too.
But they, I mean they they liked

342
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,360
each other because they were
both independent, fiercely

343
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,720
independent.
Cary Grant.

344
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,040
No, he had no social
relationship with Cary Grant.

345
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,720
Tyler, I just found this out
last week.

346
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,640
A friend of mine is friends with
Catherine Wyler, William Wyler's

347
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,320
daughter.
And he put her on the phone with

348
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,800
me because she read about the
book and she wanted to talk to

349
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,880
me and I'd never met her.
And she told me that she.

350
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,680
It was the last survivor of the
Chaplin Wyler tennis tournaments

351
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,520
because Wyler lived on Summit
Drive a couple doors up from

352
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,360
Chaplin and Chaplin had a tennis
court and Wyler had a tennis

353
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,640
court and they would get
together for these week weekend

354
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,200
tennis tournaments where you
know, Chaplin was a very serious

355
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,880
tennis player and evidently
Wyler and his was too.

356
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,720
So they would really go at it.
Their wives were not so serious

357
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,600
and the kids thought the whole
competition thing was

358
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,520
ridiculous, so they would throw
things at the.

359
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,160
The wives when they tried to
play tennis, because neither

360
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,120
Wyler's wife or Chaplin's wife
could play tennis at all, no,

361
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,480
But he said, she said they they
were Wyler and Chaplin played

362
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,840
for blood.
So he and Wyler had a social

363
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,400
relationship, but that was where
it ended.

364
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,920
They.
Just happened to be neighbors,

365
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,800
basically.
But no.

366
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,080
Cary Grant?
No.

367
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,160
But Cary Grant had a kind of
libertarian streak about

368
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,400
behavior, and he also stood up
for Ingrid Bergman a few years

369
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,880
later when she had her affair
with Roberta Rossellini and got

370
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,160
pregnant.
And he said it was nobody's

371
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,720
business.
You know, what people do in

372
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,160
their private life is nobody's
business.

373
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,640
But by 1952, which is when,
September 1952, when Chaplain

374
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,880
got kicked out of the country,
the blacklist is in full sway.

375
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,160
And most of the people that had
been persecuted by the blacklist

376
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:08,720
were either in New York, in
Mexico or hiding out, you know,

377
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,240
are working under pseudonyms.
They were out of the industry,

378
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600
effectively out of the industry.
So everybody that was within the

379
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,440
industry was not going to stand
up and say this is wrong, this

380
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:20,920
is ridiculous.
He's not a communist.

381
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,360
They didn't want to be guilty of
guilt by association, you know,

382
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,440
with someone who's obviously
unpopular with the general

383
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:33,360
public and extremely unpopular
with the probably 60% of the

384
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,080
American public.
Yeah.

385
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,440
And as you look at his career
then you know the hindsight is

386
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,240
gives you certain benefits.
Is there any, like certain

387
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,720
poignants to some of his earlier
works, knowing the exile and

388
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,720
kind of pain that came along
with that, that was ahead for

389
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,920
him?
Well, the the tramp is always an

390
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,720
outsider.
The tramp is always an outsider.

391
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,840
And it's not that it's
interesting because I was

392
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,560
watching Modern Times recently
and you guys remember the

393
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,600
opening.
You know, the factory starts,

394
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,440
it's people are streaming into
the factory to go to work and

395
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,560
the production line starts up
and everybody's working

396
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,600
frantically to keep up with the
production line.

397
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,280
And then we cut to the president
of the company who's sitting at

398
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,400
his desk working a Jigsaw Plaza
because he has nothing else to

399
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,800
do.
And it's very funny because I

400
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,360
think that's a very apartment
way of characterizing reality,

401
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,840
because it's not that people are
evil or, you know, wearing iron

402
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,160
boots to keep put on the throats
of the working man.

403
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:40,160
It's much less complicated than
that.

404
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,200
People are just interested in
their own lives, and they're

405
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,760
not.
They're only interested in other

406
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,880
people up to a point.
And after that point, they don't

407
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,080
really care.
And that's that's basically

408
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,080
reality.
That's basic reality, and

409
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,040
Chaplain's position as an
outsider is rigorously

410
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,080
maintained in his films.
Rigorously maintained.

411
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,640
He's always at the end of the
film.

412
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,800
Whatever happens during the
film, at the end of the film,

413
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,800
he's usually, he's almost always
isolated and heading down the

414
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,280
road or or alone on some
psychologically, emotionally,

415
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,400
physically and the ending of
City Lights, you know, where he

416
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,680
stares at the girl and she
recognizes him what's going to

417
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,320
happen next and he ends it on
the close up, you know, because

418
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,440
there's no way to go beyond that
recognition scene.

419
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,240
It's a it's one of the great
endings in movies.

420
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,840
The the The Tramp is that not
just a character he played, it's

421
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,240
his alter ego.
It's his way of expressing his

422
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:46,560
feelings about an outsider, an
eternal outsider in a society

423
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,320
that isn't really interested in
outsiders except in a kind of

424
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,920
romantic guy in a Horace Western
way.

425
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,720
You know, we don't really trust
outsiders.

426
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,280
We trust people who are like us,
people who have mortgages and

427
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,280
families and and and we can see
around the swimming pool.

428
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,960
You know and aren't marrying a
girl 30-40 years younger than

429
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,000
that.
Oh no, that happens all the

430
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,040
time.
Sure.

431
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,000
That happens all the IT happened
all the time in Hollywood.

432
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,200
It happens all the time outside
of Hollywood.

433
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,560
You know, I'm.
I live I live very near Palm

434
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,960
Beach, where any night on Palm
Beach you can see guys who are

435
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,400
70 and 80 years old with a
cluster of 25 and 30 year old

436
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,320
blondes clustered around them.
Now why is this happening?

437
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,760
Is it happening because they're
so devastatingly charming and

438
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,800
their their conversation is so
sparkling.

439
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,520
They're.
All pretty.

440
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,960
They're all pretty much Cary
Grant.

441
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,360
Oh yeah, imagine they're Cary
Grant.

442
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,240
They may have an Ascot, but
that's where they resemble, you

443
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,440
know, No, they're clustered
around them because they have

444
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,400
money and chaplains.
Saw it all the time in Hollywood

445
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,000
and saw it all the time in
London growing up.

446
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:59,240
Because that is, that's a common
transaction.

447
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,160
Men and women.
Yeah, it's not.

448
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,000
It's not unheard of.
He didn't vent it in his private

449
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,240
life.
He took advantage of it, but he

450
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,040
didn't.
Yeah, well, and.

451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,200
And he might have been one of
the few to actually find

452
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,600
happiness in that.
And you know, as you said at the

453
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
start, it seems like he and Uno
O'Neill did find happiness.

454
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,120
Yeah.
Now, Scott, I'm curious.

455
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,520
As as somebody who knows more
about Charlie Chaplin than I

456
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,120
would have, I would wager Bob,
you can correct me if I'm wrong.

457
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,480
I'd wager you know more about
Charlie Chaplin than 99% of the

458
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,240
human.
Population.

459
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,720
I think it's probably a fair
assumption.

460
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,200
Probably.
Probably a fair assessment.

461
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,320
What what questions do you still
have about his life?

462
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,760
Like it?
You know, A lot of times when we

463
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,080
dig into something it, you know,
we get answers, but the answers

464
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,280
raise more questions than.
You know we we had to start

465
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:52,440
with.
So is there anything that you're

466
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,760
still curious about that you're
like, man, I want to know more

467
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,160
about this part of his life or
this relationship or is there

468
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,520
anything that stuck out to you
as as I want to know more about

469
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,360
his life.
My favorite story in the book

470
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:10,560
came from Groucho Marx, and
Groucho saw that they were

471
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,840
friends in vaudeville before
they went to the movies, and

472
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,200
they but they didn't socialize
much because Vaudevillians were

473
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,800
in constant motion.
They always worked, occasionally

474
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,760
working the same bill with
somebody who actually knew

475
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,600
generally you didn't.
But one night in 1913, this is

476
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080
in September, I believe 1913,
they were both in Salt Lake

477
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,960
City.
Chapman was leaving Salt Lake

478
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,480
City because his show had closed
and the Marx Brothers were just

479
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,480
coming in and they had one night
where they were both in Salt

480
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,280
Lake City and the Marx Brothers
wanted to go to a whorehouse

481
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,160
because they were the Marx
Brothers and Groucho invited

482
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,360
Chaplin to go with him.
That's a great line.

483
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,720
They wanted to go to a
whorehouse.

484
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,720
Why?
Because they were.

485
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,480
That's incredible.
So they invited Chaplin to go

486
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,080
with him.
So Chaplin had nothing else to

487
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,560
do because his laundry had been
done.

488
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,960
So they go to the whorehouse and
the Marx Brothers pick out

489
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,560
girls, and they go in the back
to do what you do.

490
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,720
Chaplin was too shy to take a
girl.

491
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,240
Chaplin stayed in the lobby and
played with the madam's dog all

492
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,280
night until the Marx Brothers
were through and came out, and

493
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,520
then they all went back to the
hotel.

494
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,720
To me, that is so indicative of
his crippling social shyness

495
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:32,920
that never really left him and
how much fame enabled him to

496
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,720
come out of his shell.
Because when you're famous and

497
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,600
when you're rich, you don't have
to introduce yourself to people.

498
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,440
People introduce themselves to
you and people come up to you

499
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,080
and women come up to you.
And this guy who was so

500
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,040
cripplingly shy that he
couldn't, he could barely have a

501
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,880
conversation with a girl, let
alone a physical relationship

502
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,280
with a girl he had.
It has a choice, has its choice,

503
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,040
and his world changes.
Not because he's any different

504
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,880
as a human being, but because
his opportunities are suddenly

505
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,360
opened up.
Because he's got a whole

506
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:10,320
different world, a whole
different lifestyle.

507
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,120
Because he becomes a star on a
level that nobody had been

508
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,280
before him.
Literally.

509
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,120
There had never been a movie
star like Chaplin before

510
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,400
Chaplin.
He invents what we think of as

511
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,520
modern stardom, where nobody
knows who you are in January of

512
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,040
one year and 18 months later
you're a multi millionaire.

513
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,520
The money is rolling in so fast
you can't count it and everybody

514
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,720
knows who you are.
That's the kind of start of the

515
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,240
event.
What I would ask him is if I'm

516
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,440
right in imagining that becoming
famous was simultaneously

517
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,680
liberating for him on a
emotional level and on a sexual

518
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,960
level, and also terrifying for
him, because how could you

519
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,080
possibly live up to that when
inside you feel like this scared

520
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,000
little child from London?
Yeah, yeah.

521
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,920
I think that's an incredible
question and I it it segues into

522
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,040
what I wanted to finish with and
Scott, I wanted to tell you that

523
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,240
part of what?
I love about this book is it

524
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,120
does what all great biographies
do.

525
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,240
It is it's an incredible look
into one man's unique personal

526
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,600
lived experience.
But it really taps into

527
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,440
something I think much more
universal than that.

528
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,080
And in the case of Chaplin, you
know, it is this long history of

529
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440
the suppression of art and
artists.

530
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,960
And I wonder, you know, if if
there is one main take away or

531
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,640
one main lesson that you would
like others to take away from

532
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,320
the story of Chaplin.
And his involvement with the

533
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,920
government?
What did you learn in writing

534
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,920
this book, and what are you
hoping to impart to the readers

535
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,640
here?
What I learned in writing this

536
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,000
book is that everything that's
happening in America today has

537
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,040
happened before. the US
government using its leverage to

538
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:05,160
enforce, try to enforce
behavior, not not legalities.

539
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,000
That's within government's
purview but behavior it's

540
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,320
regarded it regard it might
regard as untoward or speech it

541
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,960
regards as untoward.
That is is the what makes the

542
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,680
book an ugly word relevant I
think in that it's 75 years have

543
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,840
gone by 70 years have gone by
since the events the book is

544
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:33,560
about culminating in the events.
The book is about 1952, but

545
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,520
nothing's really changed because
everything that happened that is

546
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,000
happening now.
And I have no doubt that unless

547
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,480
we're swamped by it this time,
it will happen again in 20 years

548
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,160
or 40 years or 70 years.
Because I see this kind of

549
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,680
incipient Footsie dance with the
under the table, with

550
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,680
authoritarianism as like a staph
infection in the American body

551
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,800
pond.
And no, no, no antibiotics seems

552
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,280
to cure it.
Not really because it's it's

553
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,000
always, it's always ready to
rear back as the bitch is always

554
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,440
an eat, you know the the
antibiotics don't work and it's

555
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,080
simply lies in wait until the
body politic is weakened

556
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,480
sufficiently and then it comes
roaring back.

557
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,840
And it came roaring back and
obliterated Chaplain's career in

558
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,920
America and it's doing the same
thing today, you know.

559
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,400
And I'm sure it's not going to
go away anytime soon.

560
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,000
I was going to say author and
political commentator Scott

561
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,440
Iman, everybody.
I was going to say, Scott, we

562
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,320
cannot thank you enough for
being with us today.

563
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,440
The author is Scott Iman.
The book is Charlie Chaplin

564
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,080
Versus America When Art, Sex and
Politics Collided.

565
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,560
Scott, thank you for your time
today.

566
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,320
Happy to do it.
Call me anytime.

567
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,680
We'll be back on Tuesday with
another regularly scheduled

568
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,760
episode.
But until then, I'm Bob.

569
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,080
Book.
I'm Brad G.

570
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,600
And we'll see you next time.