Baseball: The Movie - An Interview with Author Noah Gittell

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On today's Film and Whiskey, we
welcome back friend of Show Noah

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Gettel, who's just written a new
book called Baseball the Movie.

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We talk about movies.
We talk about baseball.

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We talk about Whiskey.
What more could you possibly

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want from an episode of this
podcast that's all ahead on Film

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and Whiskey?
All right, We are joined today

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by friend of show Noah Gettel.
He is an author and film critic.

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And crucially, he has written a
new book, which we've just found

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out is his first book.
So first of all, congratulations

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Sir.
Thank you fellas.

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You did it.
You've you've accomplished it.

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And a hell of a book it is.
It's called Baseball The Movie.

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First of all, I want to say
thank you for not adding 18

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extraneous subtitles to the
book.

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It's just baseball, the movie,
and you get everything you need

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to know from that because it is
so much about not just the sport

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of baseball, but how it has been
immortalized on film and how the

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two kind of interplay with each
other.

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I can't wait to dive into it.
Noah, welcome to the show.

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Thank you.
And thank you for the compliment

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because there were some people
who maybe wanted me to add some

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subtitles under the end of that
and I I resisted pretty hard.

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So I'm glad to know I made the
right decision.

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As two guys who, like you know,
went to seminary, our pastors

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are in the Christian realm.
The amount of like John Ortberg

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titles with like 57 subtitles,
it's just not my jam.

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I'm not interested.
Just say what you want to say

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and get out.
Appreciate that.

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Well, when you come up with a
title as clear as Baseball the

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Movie, why gum up the works with
a bunch of nonsense words,

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right?
Well, Brad and I feel like truly

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valuable members of the media
because we've been sent a galley

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copy to review and man, oh man,
I have just torn through this

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thing.
It is just incredible writing.

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I'm really, I don't know man.
I'm really impressed by your

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ability to weave not just your
personal thoughts on the movies,

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but your own attachment to some
of these films.

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And also always be situating us
in the sort of Americana of it

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all and how baseball movies
reflect the Americana of their

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time, but they also influence
the Americana, you know, like

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the the corpus of Americana for
years to come after these movies

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enter it.
And I, you know I just, I want

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to throw over to you man and and
give us a little bit of your

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inspiration for writing the
book.

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But also like why is this the
angle that you took.

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You know, you could have just
written a a pretty easy here's

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the best Baseball movies of all
time book.

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But you wanted to do something
bigger with it, and I think it

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the book is much more successful
for that.

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Well, thank you.
And, you know, I knew if I was

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going to spend several years on
this project, which is what it

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has ended up being, it had to be
a topic that I wouldn't mind

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spending several years with,
really living with, like talking

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to my wife about at the
breakfast table, you know,

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watching these movies over and
over again.

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And baseball movies have always
been my comfort food ever since

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I was a child.
I mean, I grew up in the late

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80s and early 90s, which was
really the high watermark for

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the baseball movie genre.
I was a huge baseball fan as a

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kid.
Angels in the outfield, You

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know, Rookie of the Year.
Those are the classes we're

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talking about, right?
Well, not exactly.

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The book.
They are referenced in the book

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for sure, but I would not call
those the high watermark.

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And the the less said about my
take on The Sandlot, perhaps the

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better.
I don't know, but I will say

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that like baseball is a sport of
nostalgia.

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I'm not personally that
interested in nostalgia.

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I think it's such a it's a
flattening thing.

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As a critic, like nostalgia
doesn't do much for me.

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Unless you want to unpack it and
figure out what it means that we

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love this thing that represents
a prior time in our life or a

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prior time in America.
And to me, just writing a

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celebratory book of of baseball
films would be to feed into that

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nostalgia.
And to me, that's not what it

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means to love something, a film
or anything else.

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To properly love something is to
understand it as as deeply as

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you can.
And this writing, this book was

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was an act of love towards the
genre that I really care about.

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And it's to understand the
baseball movie, you have to

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understand that it is a
collision of two national

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pastimes, right?
It's baseball and movies.

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These are the things that
defined American culture for so

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much of the first half of the
20th century.

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And much of the second-half as
well.

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And these days, not as much as
it used to, and that's

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interesting to unpack as well,
but it made it this sort of

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like, I don't want to say this
propaganda item because I don't

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think it was that pernicious,
but a great way to sort of

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measure changes in American
culture, in American Society

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over the years, because baseball
was this perfect symbol of

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America and because movies
magnified and magnified that

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symbol, you know, and and and
made it larger than life.

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So I just had a great time
looking at these movies,

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separating them into eras and
what each of those eras

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represented and learning
something about baseball and

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about Hollywood and maybe a
little bit about the country as

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well.
And we do just want it to be

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known to our listeners that the
official stance of the Film and

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Whiskey Podcast is that movies
and whiskey are the primary

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combining factor of American
history.

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But Noah, you're allowed to have
your opinion.

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We we like to give our guests a
little leeway on this show.

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Oh, like, like everyone else.
You know, I love to go to the

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ballpark and get a big 20 ounce
of whiskey and enjoy a a

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baseball.
You know, if we were talking

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about, like, players of the
early 1900s, we could just talk

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about how drunk they were during
the game.

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And that would be a, you know, a
perfect segue.

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Movies.
Whiskey and baseball.

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So Noah, we did an episode a
couple seasons ago where we went

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through our top five baseball
movies.

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And I don't want this to kind of
devolve into just regurgitating

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that.
And so I want to take a little

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bit of a a different tack.
And I'm sure that as you go on

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your press tour for this book,
you're going to get asked about

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your favorite baseball movie a
million times.

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So let's let's try to do
something a little bit different

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here.
I'm really intrigued by the last

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part of your book where you
signify that there's a few

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movies that come out in the mid
2000s and and early 20 tens

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starting with the Jimmy Fallon
movie fever pitch that kind of

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get at.
I think the way you phrase it is

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how does how does a baseball
movie succeed in an era of anti

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romanticism?
You know, we're living in a much

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more cynical time now.
And also the popularity of the

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sport itself has seemed to kind
of wane in in recent years.

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Where does the baseball movie go
from here?

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And I think that's what I'm
really interested to talk to you

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about today.
Are you concerned for the future

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of this genre?
Is there still a genre to to

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speak of at this point?
Yeah.

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So what happened in the 2000s,
in my opinion, is we entered

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this era in which authenticity
was more prized in cinema.

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And you know, we did an episode
on Armageddon not that long ago,

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and a lot happened between when
Armageddon was made and Fever

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Pitch was made.
I mean, one thing is that 911

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happened and the culture
changed, right?

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And like all of a sudden giant
action flicks with CGI and and

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romantic movies, like, they were
just sort of out of fashion and

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we were seeking something more
immediate and authentic.

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And I think you see that for
example and like what is the

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great action franchise of the
2000s, the Bourne movies, you

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know, which have this immediacy
and and a kind of liberal slant

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as well.
I think that really is

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reflective of of what was going
on in the country at the time

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And and So what happens to the
baseball movie, these these

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movies that are just steeped in
Americana and old fashioned

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heroism and and things like
that, they were really out of

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fashion.
Well, they kind of look

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elsewhere for their heroes.
They kind of dig deeper

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underneath the values that
baseball movies take for

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granted.
Deeper pitch is such an

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interesting example to me, and
it's it really is.

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I don't spend a lot of time on
it in the book, but it is one of

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my favorite baseball movies
because it it examines the way

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that like baseball can sort of
ruin your life.

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You know, like that's a movie
about a Red Sox fan, but the

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long-suffering Mets fan.
I certainly relate to what it

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feels like to identify with a
team that just makes you

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miserable all the time and and
it tortures you and it makes you

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question like, why am I doing
this?

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And you start counting the hours
and and days and weeks of your

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life you've spent just being
miserable watching this team

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play.
And I think that's a really

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important turn for the baseball
movie, that it's sort of

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throwing out the values that
we've taken for granted and it's

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seeking A deeper understanding
of the game.

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And then you have, you know,
Moneyball came a few years

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later, which is a real merging
of like old archetypes with a

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new way of doing things.
And that movie obviously speaks

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far beyond baseball.
In fact, I think that movie is

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probably a baseball movie that
non baseball fans like the most.

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And then you get into this other
area where baseball movies are

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sort of they're looking at
marginalized groups in the game

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who have not been given their
time in the sun.

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In baseball movies.
You know, 42 is sort of a

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retelling of old Jackie Robinson
stories.

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I don't think that movie is.
I enjoy it, but I don't think

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it's that interesting, really.
I think Fences is a really

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interesting Negro Leagues movie,
even though there's no baseball

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in it.
It tells the story of the Negro

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Leagues through the Denzel
Washington character far better

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than any Jackie Robinson story
ever has.

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And then there's a movie like
Sugar, which has it's developing

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this reputation as sort of a
classic in the genre among

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people who know, you know,
baseball has been terrible about

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telling the story of Latin born
players, Dominican players and

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from other other countries in
the Caribbean and Latin America.

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Baseball's been bad about it.
Hollywood's been bad about it

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too, because they don't want you
thinking about people like the

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lead character in Sugar.
Who is this minor leaguer who

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gets brought in from the
Dominican Republic and really

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struggles and in the end kind of
has to decide whether he even

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wants to keep playing this game.
And that's a rare story for a

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baseball movie to tell with a
guy's actually thinking about

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quitting and and he's not going
to make it to the majors and

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he's struggling and he's taking
amphetamines and he doesn't feel

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at home in the country.
It's it's a really subversive

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movie and and you know, that's
basically laying out the whole

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last chapter of the book here.
So sorry for the spoilers, but

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the idea here is that the
baseball movie as it once was

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just really could not exist
anymore in the 21st century.

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The culture had changed too
much.

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And that leads us to the point
right now where there hasn't

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been a baseball movie with a
major release really since

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everybody wants some in 2016,
and I don't know if we'd even

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call that a major release.
Instead what we're getting is a

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lot of documentaries and I think
that speaks to changes in the

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Hollywood ecosystem and you know
sort of a a how baseball culture

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has changed into something that
has a little more information

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based than experience based.
And I don't know if that's a

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good change or not, but I think
the full story of the baseball

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movie is yet to be written.
I I do think it's still present

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and it's still evolving.
Spoiler alert, If something

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becomes wildly information
based, it's not going to make

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for a good movie.
I think that's right.

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Like Moneyball does it as best
as you probably could do that

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and and still have an enjoyable
film but I I'm with you Noah

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that that seems like a a
disappointing trend for

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something that's so classic for
America.

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I I think that this is going to
sound very basic but I know that

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there's a lot of people who
listen to our podcast that are

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are more whiskey based.
They like listen to our whiskey

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segments.
Can you just give us a basic

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definition in the in the film
world of Americana?

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Oh boy, that's a that's actually
a difficult question.

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I mean I think in a way in in in
the idea of film.

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I think you could talk talk
about it as sort of a

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fetishization of American
values.

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You know kind of something like
a like a post war era sort of

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value system and yeah holding it
up as a as a as a these these

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post war American values as a
cultural artifact sort.

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And certainly and you know, not
really, not really trying to

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look look underneath those
values and and see the true

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factors at play, but sort of
offering a a shallow but the

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very compelling vision of of
America's exceptionalism.

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You know, Noah, as I got into
the book, I really found myself

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wondering, you have it split up
kind of by era of

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chronologically, like from way
back in the 30s and 40s all the

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way to the modern day.
Was there an era for you that

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00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,560
was the most difficult to kind
of get your arms around?

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00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,240
And I I mean, I have kind of a,
it's a leading question, 'cause

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I have a movie that I really
want to talk about.

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But I feel like some baseball
eras are much more

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00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,800
straightforward about what they
think of the game, what they

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00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,120
think of, how that reflects
America and others get a little

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00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,400
bit more tangled up and and
knotted.

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00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,760
So for you personally, as a
lover of baseball movies, what

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00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,360
was the easiest era for you?
What was the hardest one for you

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00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,000
to write about?
It's an interesting question

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00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,680
because you would think it would
be the 80s and 90s cause those

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00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:50,560
are the movies I grew up with.
But that actually made it harder

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because I had such nostalgia for
those films that it was it was a

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00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,320
little harder to be critical of
them or really find the right

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00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,320
critical lane or critical Ave.
for them.

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Also, because people love those
movies so much and know them so

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much, I felt I felt a lot of
pressure.

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00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,320
I think actually the 70s era was
the easiest for me.

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There are only three movies in
that section, so that helped.

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But I'm just pretty comfortable.
I've done a lot of thinking and

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00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,240
a lot of writing about the
cultural and political forces in

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00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,520
the 70s already.
So it was pretty easy to to, you

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00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,360
know, parse that out and and
lean on my knowledge base there.

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00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,360
And I actually had not seen the
original bad news pairs when I,

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00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,000
like, started writing this book.
I know, I don't know how I

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00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,200
missed it.
It was crazy.

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00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,360
But I loved that movie so much
when I finally did catch up with

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00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,320
it, it's a top five baseball
movie for me now.

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00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,680
So it was.
It was fun to watch, to write

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00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,480
about that.
Sort of like having newly fallen

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00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,640
in love with it.
Yeah, you know, I totally had

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00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,080
something kind of similar
recently.

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00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,880
I sat down and watched Field of
Dreams for the first time, and I

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00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,600
don't know how long.
And as I was watching it, I I

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00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,240
kind of had this realization.
Have I ever actually watched

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00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,840
this movie front to back before
or have I just seen it in bits

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00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,600
and pieces on cable?
And man, like, you know, this is

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00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,160
held up as like the paragon of
baseball movies.

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00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,120
And I was kind of shocked to see
how, first of all, how little

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00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,720
baseball is actually in it.
But also how you know, if you

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00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,120
want to talk about baseball as a
metaphor or as a symbol, this

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00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,120
movie is like the apex of that.
Because it's not really about

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00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,720
baseball at all, is it?
I totally agree.

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00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:33,720
I had a hard time writing about
it.

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00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,600
And you know, somebody on
another podcast asked me to like

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00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,280
define what is a baseball movie.
And I said it's really hard to

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00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,240
do because the best definition
you can come up with will have

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00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,240
the exceptions.
And typically I would say

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00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,760
something like a baseball movie
is a movie where the baseball

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00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,000
moves the plot forward in some
way.

292
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,560
But Field of Dreams it does not
at all.

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00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,400
Like the the baseball action in
that movie is almost it's

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00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,280
completely incidental to the
plot, right.

295
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,680
But on the other hand, it is
about baseball perhaps more than

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00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,480
any other movie that's ever been
made.

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00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,720
So it is, it is really a hard
one to pin down.

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00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,360
I had AI had a quote from
Michael Scherer that I didn't

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00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,120
actually use in that chapter.
I used a different one because

300
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,920
he was writing a he wrote a A
series.

301
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,720
He was going to adapt it into
ATV Series A couple years ago,

302
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,840
and it got dropped by Amazon
just before they started

303
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,000
shooting.
But he said that when he went to

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00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000
his writers room before they
started writing it, he said that

305
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,280
this movie is like a giant.
It's like a giant bubble, like

306
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,400
it's that delicate.
It's delicate and it shimmers

307
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,480
and it looks different from
different angles.

308
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,760
And we have to be stewards of
this bubble and make sure it

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00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,080
doesn't pop.
And I thought that was so

310
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,000
fascinating because it just it
explains how precarious the

311
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,480
whole movie is that if you start
pulling at the threads, like the

312
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,000
whole thing just kind of falls
apart.

313
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,240
Yeah, it's just really
interesting, kind of.

314
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,560
And I don't know, political
document, like it's very clearly

315
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,680
this like apology.
You know, I don't.

316
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,640
I don't know if it's a defense
or an actual apology on behalf

317
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,760
of, like, the boomers that made
this movie that, you know, we

318
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,760
were these young liberals at one
time.

319
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,960
And now we've slipped into
conservativism.

320
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,720
And it's like, there's a lot of
Reagan going through this movie.

321
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,480
But, like, at the end of the
day, it's also very much like,

322
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,000
we want we want to have our cake
and eat it too.

323
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,000
We want to be able to say that,
like, we still have this liberal

324
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,600
streak in us, but we've settled
down.

325
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,640
We live on farms now, and that's
OK.

326
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,200
And baseball is the metaphor for
America that allows us to, like,

327
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,360
be OK with that decision.
Like, hey, time marches on.

328
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,920
But baseball's still here and it
allows us to tap into our

329
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,400
nostalgia and still be OK with
the with the way things have

330
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,720
shaken out, really interesting,
like political point of view

331
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,360
going on in this movie that I
was not expecting in my baseball

332
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:56,200
film.
If I'm being honest, man.

333
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,240
It's like a sequel to The Big
Chill.

334
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,360
Yeah, yeah.
Right, which Kevin Costner was

335
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,000
famously in for half a second.
So that's pretty interesting,

336
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,200
though I do get into that in the
book.

337
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,360
The politics of that are really
fascinating.

338
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,320
I spend a lot of time on it in
that chapter actually.

339
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,120
I've been thinking about
Moneyball and like, what a

340
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,320
watershed that is in the history
of the baseball movie because it

341
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,960
is such a it's such an anti, not
an anti baseball movie, but it's

342
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,360
anti what we've come to know as
a baseball movie in terms of,

343
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,680
like, negating it.
In a lot of ways it's about the

344
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,720
informational side of things.
And yet they still can't land

345
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,960
the plane on that movie without
putting like the big climactic

346
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,960
game at the end of that movie.
So you still have to fall into

347
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,280
the tropes.
But part of me wonders if you

348
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,000
know Brad when we were in
seminary and if you take public

349
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,800
speaking classes, this is like
one of the first things they

350
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,600
ever tell you is like, don't use
sports metaphors when you're

351
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,000
talking with large groups of
people.

352
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560
Because, like, you will lose
your audience immediately if

353
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,040
they're not intimately familiar
with the rules of football.

354
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,880
Like, you can't make a football
reference and.

355
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,720
And I kind of wonder if like
that standard has crept into

356
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,720
movie making in a lot of ways
where yes, sports is still the

357
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,040
thing that unites us the most.
We still watch the Super Bowl

358
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,680
every year, but the sort of anti
sports movie seems to be more

359
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,680
generally accepted now than like
your your straightforward sports

360
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200
film.
And I'm kind of wondering too,

361
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,960
like Noah, if you were tasked
with writing a baseball movie to

362
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,880
continue this genre, like where
would you go with it?

363
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,320
Because Brad and I have had this
conversation about sports films

364
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,440
in general.
I can't remember the last time a

365
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,440
truly great sports movie came
out, not just baseball.

366
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,640
And the ones that do seem to be
really focused on

367
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,160
contextualizing their sport in a
particular time.

368
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,280
Like, I think about Cinderella
Man.

369
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,200
I think about even like
Seabiscuit, a movie that I

370
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,600
really like, because it's so
perfectly ties together the

371
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,160
ideas of modernization and the
depression with that horse.

372
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,120
Like, is that the way forward
with baseball is to is to talk

373
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,240
about it in past terms, or is
there a modern baseball story to

374
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,000
be told here?
You know, baseball is obviously

375
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,400
not as popular as it once was.
You know, numbers wise it's

376
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,400
still doing quite well.
Everybody's making a lot of

377
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,080
money.
People are seeing are going a

378
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,320
lot of games.
But it's it's third, you know,

379
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,840
among the major sports in in
America right now.

380
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,200
But in other countries it is
still growing and popular.

381
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,120
It's doing great in Japan and
Korea.

382
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,400
And you know, last year many of
us were glued to our TV's

383
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,080
watching the World Baseball
Classic, watching teams from

384
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,240
Great Britain and Australia and
Israel and Czech Republic

385
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,160
competing on a on a global
stage.

386
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,760
And to me, that's where the
future of the baseball movie

387
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,520
lies.
I don't know that it will remain

388
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,240
an American artifact in the
future, certainly not the way it

389
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,120
once was.
But if you want to make a great

390
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,360
baseball movie, you said it at
the World Baseball Classic.

391
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,800
There are so many storylines
happening there.

392
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:02,920
You've got, obviously you've got
the international thing, people

393
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,480
from different countries
competing.

394
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,120
You've got you've got players
who are not in the major

395
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,800
leagues, like playing for their
homeland, You know, like there

396
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,600
there were people on Team Israel
who were like minor leaguers in

397
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,920
the major leagues for in in
America, for example, but

398
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,440
they're playing on Team Israel
against America's major leagues.

399
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,920
That's a really cool dynamic.
You've got people who are out of

400
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,520
the major leagues who are past
their prime, but they're still

401
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,000
playing for their home country
in the World Baseball Classic.

402
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,920
You guys, you've got young guys,
you've got old guys.

403
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,120
You've got people trying out for
managerial roles in the major

404
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,880
leagues by managing, you know,
their home countries team.

405
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,560
There's so many kind of veteran
rookie storylines happening

406
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,280
there.
And you've got the most

407
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,520
important thing to get a
baseball movie made, which is

408
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,920
that you're building in an
international audience.

409
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,320
The reason the baseball movie
took so long to really find its

410
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,080
boom in American cinema is
because it was widely understood

411
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,480
to be box office poison
overseas.

412
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,760
There was a thought that people
in other countries will not go

413
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,040
to a baseball movie, and the two
movies that really overturned

414
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,560
that were Field of Dreams and
Moneyball.

415
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,600
But I think that only happened
because they had huge movie

416
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,240
stars that they could put on the
posters.

417
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,880
And baseball movies actually
don't often have that because

418
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,080
they're ensemble movies for the
most part, and not movies driven

419
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,760
by a major star.
But if you can convince people,

420
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,800
Hollywood executives, that a
baseball movie is going to have

421
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,720
an international audience all of
a sudden, that completely

422
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,640
changes the calculus.
So to me, creating international

423
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,240
storylines, setting the movie of
the world, Baseball Classic,

424
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,360
that kind of thing, is the path
forward for the baseball movie

425
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,480
in terms of creating a
compelling story that speaks to

426
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,080
our more, you know, global world
and also making an financial

427
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,880
calculus that makes sense to the
suits.

428
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,600
And and who's Who's your movie
star?

429
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,320
Who?
Who's drawing people in?

430
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,880
For the ball, Well, that's a
pretty big question, 'cause we

431
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,720
don't have guys, you know, like
Brad Pitt anymore, except Brad

432
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,840
Pitt, who's still still hanging
around.

433
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,920
I don't know.
You know, Glenn Powell was a

434
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,800
pretty good baseball player, and
everybody wants some.

435
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,600
And he's still, he's still young
enough that he could, he could

436
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,320
be in a baseball movie.
His star is on the rise.

437
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,520
You're speaking Bob's language.
Right now he.

438
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,920
Loves him some Glenn Powell.
The thing is, we don't have

439
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,120
movie stars of a certain age
that have baseball bodies

440
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:30,000
anymore.
Like you can't put Chalamet in a

441
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,520
baseball movie.
He's too.

442
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,480
He's too slight like nor.
Can you put Jason Momoa in a

443
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,680
baseball movie?
You need somebody like in the

444
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,720
middle.
Yeah, you can put Momoa in a

445
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,960
movie that's about juicing and
then you'd be like, oh, this is

446
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,720
a really compelling Oscar bait
movie, right?

447
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,080
You could you could play Jose
Canseco.

448
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,440
There you go.
Well, Noah, before we get out of

449
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,120
here, OK, we're we're casting
and and writing your dream

450
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,960
scenario here.
Who's a filmmaker that you think

451
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,000
could help resurrect this genre?
Who's Because, you know, in the

452
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,840
book, you kind of start the
whole thing off by saying

453
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,120
baseball is the most cinematic
sport.

454
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,240
And this is a thing that Brad
and I have talked about a lot.

455
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,720
There's something about the
unique combination of inertness

456
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,520
and then like bursts of energy
that it allows film makers to

457
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,200
really explore the sight lines,
the geography, to situate an

458
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,400
audience in a baseball field in
a way you can't do with the fast

459
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,160
pace of football or basketball.
For instance, who's a filmmaker

460
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,360
that you really want to see
operate in this area, that that

461
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:38,720
understands the rules of
shooting a movie set on a

462
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,320
baseball field?
All right.

463
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,320
Boy, that's a tough question
because none of these young film

464
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,480
makers are really doing anything
quite quite like this, to be

465
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,440
honest with you.
But see somebody who understands

466
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,480
stillness.
I mean, I think an easy answer

467
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,160
would be, you know, you look at
what Ryan Coogler did with a

468
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,840
boxing movie and I would, I'd be
pretty interested to see what he

469
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,200
could do with a baseball movie.
I think he could make it very

470
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,480
dynamic.
You know my mind is going to

471
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,040
older film makers.
I have to say like I, you know

472
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,480
Spike Lee wanted to make a
baseball movie.

473
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,200
I talk about it in the book.
He he had a Jackie Robinson

474
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,960
script that is incredible.
And I dissected in the script

475
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,080
and I want more movies about the
Negro Leagues, to be honest with

476
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,440
you.
There was a documentary about

477
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,680
the Negro leagues that came out
last year that I thought was

478
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,080
fine.
I didn't think it was

479
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,240
particularly great.
But there's so many great

480
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,800
stories from that era and we're
we're in such a we're in such a

481
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,880
kind of golden age in terms of
like uncovering history about

482
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,360
the Negro Leagues.
You know, the museum was opened

483
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,440
not that long ago.
And, you know, it's just, it

484
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,880
just seems like there's people
who care about baseball are

485
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,200
putting a lot of thought and
effort into learning about the

486
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,960
Negro Leagues and honoring its
history.

487
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,280
None of the Jackie Robinson
movies really show much of the

488
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,360
Negro Leagues.
There was a great HBO movie

489
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,440
called Soul of the Game in the
90s that was good but didn't get

490
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,840
a lot of attention.
I think that's what we need.

491
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,880
So I I mean somebody like Ryan
Coogler or another one of our

492
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,880
great young black film makers, I
would love to see them tackle

493
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,000
something like that.
I think that's the kind of thing

494
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,160
that could keep the baseball
movie fresh, because we're

495
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,000
really finding, you know,
unwritten stories from

496
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,720
baseball's history that still
deserve more of a spotlight.

497
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,880
Brad, I want you to picture this
for a minute.

498
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,240
All right, let's let's go on the
Spike Lee train.

499
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,240
You know, the famous Spike Lee
shot of his actor standing on

500
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,000
the Dolly, like, floating down
the street?

501
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,160
The best version of it that
we've watched for the podcast

502
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,160
was at the end of Malcolm X,
right?

503
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,800
I want you to picture a Spike
Lee movie depicting the 1995

504
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,240
Cleveland Indians.
And I don't know.

505
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,440
Lakeith Stanfield is playing
Kenny Lofton and Spike Lee saves

506
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,160
that shot for Kenny Lofton
stealing home, dude.

507
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,720
Like.
That is the best use of that

508
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,600
shot in the history of that
shot, dude.

509
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,400
I mean, Kenny Lofton is my
favorite Indians player from

510
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:01,440
that era, so I'm sold already.
I was going to recommend like a

511
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,480
a horror baseball mix over We
get Jordan Peele in here to

512
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,000
direct a movie that I think that
could be fascinating, I thought.

513
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,840
You were gonna go with like a
like a Ari Aster.

514
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,760
You know, it's funny, 'cause
Noah was like, who's somebody

515
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,480
that understands stillness?
And I was like, oh gosh, please

516
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,040
don't recommend like the, like
the Celine song baseball movie,

517
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,440
right?
Like I don't know if that mashup

518
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,240
would quite work as well.
You know what, if a slow cinema

519
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,360
is a baseball movie?
I think that the MLB executives

520
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,000
would have a conniption fit over
that they're trying to speed up

521
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,240
the game.
They don't want slow cinema,

522
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,720
baseball movies.
As I say, you said like a a

523
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,680
director who understands
stillness paired with those

524
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,920
bursts of action.
I like this could be a wildly

525
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,440
off answer.
I think Edgar Wright could be an

526
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,400
interesting director for a
baseball movie.

527
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,480
Oh.
That's fun, yeah.

528
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,440
Like, he has enough of his own
stuff that would fit in there,

529
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,760
but I I think he could be a
really fun baseball director,

530
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,200
especially as somebody who I am
guessing did not grow up with

531
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,600
baseball as their primary thing.
To have an outside voice and

532
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,520
thought process on it could be
fascinating.

533
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,320
I got, I got a couple more that
just sprung to mind.

534
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:13,720
You know, we're talking about
stillness, I mean, and

535
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,640
confrontation.
And, you know, the baseball is

536
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,200
like, it would mesh very well
with the Western, I think, with

537
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,040
somebody who knows how to direct
Westerns.

538
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,160
So this is an insane idea.
But how about a How about a

539
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,080
Kelly Riker baseball?
Movie.

540
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,920
Oh, nice.
You can't shoot.

541
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,080
It in cut off with baseball.
I was going to say you can't

542
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,760
shoot it in Academy ratio
though.

543
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,240
Like you got to get my girl
shooting these movies in like at

544
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,240
least 185 just for the sake of
seeing the stadium.

545
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,120
No, no stadium shots.
No crowd shots.

546
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Just the pitcher and and the
batter.

547
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:47,760
That's it.
There you go.

548
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,760
I want to see a Terrence Malick
baseball film.

549
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,720
That's what we need to revive
the baseball.

550
00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:01,880
Play it in a wheat field, yes.
All right, everybody, this has

551
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,440
been our friend Noah Getzel.
Noah, I'm I'm so glad that you

552
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,800
chose to spend a few moments
with us talking about this book.

553
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,240
The book is called Baseball The
Movie.

554
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,760
Noah, where can we find the
book, and where can we find you

555
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,720
on social media?
The book is available at all the

556
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,760
places people buy books, Amazon
and Barnes and Noble and

557
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:25,400
bookshop and Target.
You can also find me on Twitter

558
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,240
at Noah Gutel.
I'm on TikTok a little bit and

559
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,040
Instagram a little bit.
And you can go to my website

560
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,280
noahgutel.com, that's 2TS2LS and
you'll see all the book

561
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,720
information there as well as
events that I have coming up.

562
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,160
All right.
We'll be back on Tuesday with

563
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,960
another regularly scheduled
episode.

564
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,920
But until then, I'm Bob Book.
I'm Brad G.

565
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,480
And we'll see you next time.