Zodiac / Rebel Small Batch Reserve Bourbon

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In 2007, director David Fincher
and star Jake Gyllenhaal gave

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the world an excruciating
examination into the unsolved

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Zodiac murders.
In 2024, we try a new release

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from one of our favorite brands.
The film is.

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Zodiac the whiskey is Rebel
Small Batch Reserve.

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And we'll review them both.
This is the Film and Whiskey

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podcast.
Welcome to the Film and Whiskey

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podcast, where each week we
review a classic movie and a

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glass of whiskey.
I'm Bob Book.

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I'm Brad G.
And this week we are looking at

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David Fincher's 2007 masterpiece
Question Mark Zodiac.

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Now, Brad, we literally just got
on the horn with each other.

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And usually when we start, you
know, our pre recording spiel

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with each other, catching up on
life or whatever, we make vague

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mention of our general thoughts
on the movie or where we might

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want to take the episode.
No such luck today.

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We just said screw it, let's
jump on and see what happens.

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And it's.
An.

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Unsolved mystery.
Listen, dude, I am waiting with

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bated breath to hear what you
thought of the movie because

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you've never seen it before.
I've been telling you for years

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to watch it.
I've also been telling you maybe

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I should set expectations for
you when you watch it.

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I have my reasons for that.
But even before we dive into

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Brad's initial thoughts on the
movie, I just want to make note

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of how rare an occurrence it is
for Bob to come in completely

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blind to an episode.
The way I am right now, this is

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new territory.
Yeah, and and like, the perfect

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movie to match that with.
Like this is truly an

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opportunity to surprise you with
my deep, heavy breathing.

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Well, yeah, listen man, I I edit
the episodes.

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I know all about your heavy
breathing and mine I take.

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I basically gasp between every
every sentence.

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And I think that once again,
that's appropriate for the movie

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that we're reviewing today.
So folks, welcome into the

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podcast.
If this is your first time

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joining us, welcome into film in
Whiskey.

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This season.
What we're doing is we're

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looking at films from the last
20 years and we're asking the

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question, does this film deserve
to be considered a modern

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classic?
Now, Bob, I have to point out

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the fact we did not do that last
week.

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Yes, we have some Skyfall.
We have some housekeeping to do

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today because yes, we forgot to
actually answer the question.

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Does Skyfall belong in the
conversation of modern classics?

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I vote yes.
Where do you vote?

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I vote I'm going to abstain.
I think.

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I think I need to see the movie.
I, I need to see a little more

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from this season to see, you
know what my gauge of a modern

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classic is.
Because as it stands right now,

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I think I would lean no.
But you know, if, if there's a

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lot of average movies from here
on out, I I, I could be

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convinced that Skyfall is a
modern map.

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And I don't think that we only
need to consider this pool of

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movies either, you know, we've
watched a ton of movies from

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this century or, you know, since
2005, wherever we're starting

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this endeavor that yes, I would
consider No Country for Old Men

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and There Will Be Blood and
whatever, a modern classic.

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So I think even among that
group, I vote yes for Skyfall.

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I vote no, all right?
It's not a modern classic.

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All right, so let's talk about
modern classics.

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We've identified this list of 32
movies that we're looking at

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this season by whether or not
they met the criteria for four

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categories.
Is it in the IMDb top 250?

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Is it in the letterbox top 250?
Did it make $100 million?

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Was it nominated for Best
Picture?

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And as we kind of went down the
list of movies that hit all four

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movies that hit three, of the
four movies that only hit two or

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one, we kind of got to the point
where we had a bigger pool of

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movies that only checked like
one or two boxes.

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And then Brad and I kind of just
drafted them amongst each other.

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And this was one that I wanted
to make sure made it in because

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when this movie came out, Brad,
it was a huge flop.

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It did not make very much money
at the box office at all and it

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got kind of screwed on awards
contention, and we'll get into

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that later.
But this was one that Bob kind

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of shoehorned in and Brad,
you'll have yours that you shoot

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shoehorn in as well.
This was definitely a Bob book

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pick.
Yeah, and it, it feels like a

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Bob book.
Pick it.

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It feels like a film that you
would be quite enamoured with.

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Oh, why do you say that?
Because I'm a serial killer.

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I I you're making the
connections, Bob, not me.

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I'm just speculating if I were
to talk to anybody about it.

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Well, let's do this.
I would like to hear what

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connections you find from me to
this movie.

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But in order to do that, let's
get a sense of what the movie

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is, and let's get into our first
segment of the day, which we

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call Brad explains.
Brad's going to give us the

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movie plots with only 60 seconds
taken on the clock, so let's go

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ahead and do your take with this
little segment that we call,

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Brad explains.
Brad Explains is the part of the

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show where Brad breaks down the
plot of the film that he has

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just seen, often for the first
time.

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Brad, this was your first time
with Zodiac, correct?

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It sure was.
And you watched it.

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I have to say I'm, I'm
impressed.

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You watched it in one sitting
starting at about 9:30 in the

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morning.
So this was like, you know, pour

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yourself a cup of coffee, start
your morning off right with a

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David Fincher meticulous
investigation movie.

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I'm, I'm very impressed.
I do think this will be one of

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the easier, Brad explains for
the season.

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But I'm giving you, as always,
60 seconds.

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Spoil this movie for us, Brad,
and then we'll talk about it

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some more.
One minute and go.

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Zodiac is a film about the
Zodiac Killer of the 1960s and

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70s.
It follows the journey of a San

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Francisco chronicler I believe
is the newspaper.

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The Chronicle, yeah.
The The Chronicle, I apologize.

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A cartoonist who works for the
Chronicle that becomes obsessed

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with finding the killer in the
late 70s through the 80s and

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eventually writes a book on it.
Fun fact, they never actually

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find the Zodiac Killer even
though everybody's pretty sure

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that they know who who done it.
Boom, Zodiac, Zodiac.

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Now Brad, I have already sensing
some thoughts from you.

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I'll let you tease them out
yourself.

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But I do want to hear, you know,
you said this seems like a Bob

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book movie.
What do we mean by that?

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Because you're right.
But I'd I'd like to hear how I

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landed on that list for you.
I think that it is incredibly

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meticulously shot and fastly
paced.

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Like you move from scene to
scene really quickly and you

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don't have to sit very long with
each idea as you rush through

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this movie.
And I it just has the the look

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of a movie that Bob would love,
like the color palette of the

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film, the acting style of the
actors.

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I'm guessing that Robert Downey
Junior was your like least

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favorite performance of all the
main people.

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Sure was.
Yep, you are on to it man.

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Dude, I, you know how there's
times where you tell me that my

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tasting notes are just perfect
and there's nothing you have to

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add.
That's kind of how I feel about

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this movie.
But yeah, I I think that this

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has all of the things that Bob
is going to look for in a movie,

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and I think that this movie is
not good.

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Yeah, I, I kind of figured you
were going to come in with with

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a similar vibe to that.
And I want to set the stage

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today by saying this.
The first time I saw Zodiac, I

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thought it was a not even just
competently made, an

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extraordinarily well made movie
that felt too long, a little

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shaggy and left me wondering
like, what's what's the message

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here?
Like what is the point of all

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this?
And I think that Zodiac is one

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of those films that despite my
my own opinion of it, there was

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something about the craft of the
movie and it's kind of downward

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spiral of obsession, similar to
a movie like Vertigo, I guess,

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which also San Francisco sent.
But that kept me kind of like

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anytime I was just like perusing
my shelf and feeling like, what

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should I throw on for a little
bit, even if I only make it 45

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minutes in, be like, you know
what, I kind of want to watch

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Zodiac again.
I need to give that another

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chance.
And it was never the, I have to

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give this a chance because it's
Kubrick's 2001 and I have to

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like this movie.
It was more just like, yeah, let

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me check that out again.
And I've probably seen it in

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full maybe four times through
now, but I've seen bits and

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pieces of it, I'd say maybe 10
times.

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And every single rewatch makes
this movie richer and deeper and

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I appreciate it more.
It kind of has the opposite

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effect of Fincher's other quote,
UN quote masterpiece, The Social

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Network, where while that movie
is big and flashy and Sorkin's

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dialogue is like right there for
you to grab onto, I feel like

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repeat viewings of The Social
Network has made me feel kind of

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like, yeah, like we got the
point the first time, You know

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what I mean?
Like, I it never gets to be a

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richer experience on rewatch for
me.

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So all that to say, I kind of
expected you to come in here

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much cooler on this than me, and
not because of our particular

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differences in taste, but just
because this was your first time

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with the movie.
If this was your second, third

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time, I don't know if you'd like
it better, but I think that I

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was kind of banking on you not
being as all in on it as I am.

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Here's the problem, Bob.
I I've said this a few times

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about other movies.
The problem I have with this

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movie isn't that I don't like
it, it's that I was really bored

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for two hours and 32 minutes. 35
minutes, however long it takes

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to get to the credits.
I never found anything in this

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movie to actually be compelling.
Oh, interesting.

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And and so like it like well
made.

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I think the pacing is really
well done, although it gets

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really tiring after a while to
feel this sense of urgency that

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goes nowhere and ends up being
just really boring.

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So it's it's kind of this like
mixture of I think that Fincher

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wanted you to feel the pressure
of this case building over the

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years, but all I felt like was
that he was trying to kill me

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personally, with how long the
film was, like, I die of old age

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before it was finished.
So it's like, yeah, I just was

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really bored for 2 1/2 hours and
then I wasn't and now I'm here.

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There you go all right, well,
you as always, you are adding

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just a, a pleth, a wealth of
analysis to this this podcast

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man, and I'm I'm joking, I'm
being facetious.

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If you're bored, you're bored.
I do want to interrogate, not

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even interrogate, investigate a
little bit like.

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Why you?
I was going to say I I have my

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rights.
Yeah, you haven't.

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You haven't read me, my Miranda.
Shining a spotlight on you,

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Where were you on the night of
July 4th?

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So I think it's a kind of cast,
a direction for this episode.

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I identified a couple movies
that are like really obvious

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influences on this film and then
also films that I think were

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influenced by this movie.
But I want to start on the top

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with All the President's Men,
which is one of the most famous

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newspaper movies ever made.
And it's also an investigative,

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you know, it's about the
Watergate scandal and how

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Bernstein and Woodward cracked
that case.

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And it is just a meticulous
recounting of all the leads they

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had to follow up on.
You watch the procedural.

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It's not a police procedural,
but it's a journalistic

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procedural.
And it's a movie that I believe

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you.
You've never seen, have you?

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What?
What's the movie called?

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All the president's men.
I have never heard of that film.

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Yeah.
So this is this is a big problem

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because I think it's like, A,
it's a classic film, and B, it

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is kind of like when we watched
the movie Spotlight later this

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year, Spotlight was consistently
referred to as like this

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generation's All the President's
Men.

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And I kind of wish that we had
watched both Spotlight and the

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Denis Villeneuve movie Prisoners
before this movie, because those

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are both kind of procedural
dramas.

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00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,320
One of them has Jake Gyllenhaal
in it.

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One of them is about working at
a newspaper.

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00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:09,360
And I, I, I can't wait till we
get to those movies so we can

225
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,560
kind of call back to Zodiac and
start comparing and contrasting.

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00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:15,480
But I think part of the reason
that you may have been bored by

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00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,440
this movie is that we've never
really done a procedural movie

228
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,600
on this podcast, especially not
set inside of a newsroom.

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00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,040
I mean, I think that I, I guess
I don't know if it would count

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00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,560
in the exact same way, but I'm
curious if you would consider

231
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:39,320
goodnight and good luck kind of
a procedural newsroom like.

232
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,600
Maybe a little bit, yeah.
Especially in the pacing of it

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00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,720
'cause that movie had that kind
of like not even slow pace, but

234
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,680
just like almost documentary
vibe where they're just

235
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,840
documenting each step of the
process.

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00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,120
That's that's fair.
Yeah, and I very much so like

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that movie.
I would also call Vertigo a

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00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,200
procedural drama.
The the way he goes about

239
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,400
solving that mystery feels very
procedural, you know, like he's

240
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,120
just kind of walking through a
garden following this lady

241
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,680
around.
So I, I think both of those

242
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:13,040
could fit in that category.
And fun fact, I think I gave a

243
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,760
10 out of 10 to both of those.
Yeah, you're right.

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00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,120
We've done a couple that I would
say if not like a perfect

245
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,480
example like you're saying,
they're at least tangentially

246
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,920
related to the genre.
So is the problem more that it's

247
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,520
hard to sustain that type of
narrative over 2 1/2 hours?

248
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,680
I I think that's definitely one
of the issues.

249
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,520
OK, well, let's go in on those
issues a little bit like so.

250
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,520
We've identified the form, the
form of the movie as part of the

251
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,760
problem.
What else did you just not jive

252
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,520
with here?
I I mean Jake Gyllenhaal doesn't

253
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,280
know how to act in this movie.
I like he has.

254
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,400
The I love it when you come in
with incredibly spicy takes, but

255
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,240
you don't say like, you don't
preface it with like, I've got

256
00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,960
some thoughts.
You're just like, this is

257
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,960
objective fact.
Jake Gyllenhaal doesn't know how

258
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,320
to act.
You don't know it in like, I

259
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,720
think that this is a bad
performance.

260
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,560
It's in this film.
He forgot how to act.

261
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,160
Yeah, 'cause he has the exact
same face every single scene of

262
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,880
the movie except for when he
gets a little bit scared in that

263
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,160
guy's basement.
Like he like he's, he's afraid

264
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:29,560
for one scene and he's like kind
of earnest and blank stare the

265
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,320
rest of the film.
And I like, I just think his

266
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:40,680
performance, which is supposed
to carry the movie is so boring

267
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,680
and he he doesn't have any
ability to draw others to him.

268
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,760
And that the way that Fincher
shoots his date with the the

269
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,240
girl that he ends up marrying
that I don't even know what her

270
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,200
name is because who gives a RIP
about her?

271
00:15:54,560 --> 00:16:01,640
Like the, the way that he acts
on that date is so ridiculous

272
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:08,200
and boring and frustrating.
And he doesn't like the, there's

273
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,920
a lot of this movie that doesn't
follow.

274
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,440
Like, it doesn't follow in any
semblance of the real world that

275
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,360
those two human beings would get
married based on what they have

276
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,240
shown you in the film.
And so I think it's like stuff

277
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,680
like that that just frustrates
me beyond any belief that it

278
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,600
made it into the film.
Like, give your character

279
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,160
something other than this
obsession to understand why

280
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,720
things are happening in the
world.

281
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,400
But like, there's just so much
happening that we have to get

282
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,120
through.
We have to rush through that.

283
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,640
Meh.
Joel Hall just kind of has to

284
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,400
flow from 1 angstiness to the
next.

285
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,080
There are times where I'm
thinking, as you're talking

286
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,640
about, like, we have to fill 60
minutes of audio here, Brad.

287
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,600
And I feel like we could just
kind of call it here if we

288
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,599
wanted to.
Like, yeah, I think you said

289
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,800
what you want to say.
I now, again, we're not going to

290
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,560
do that.
But it's hard for me to think

291
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,000
of, like, where to go because it
sounds like literally nothing

292
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,720
about this movie worked for you.
Is that fair?

293
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:16,560
I don't know if I would say
nothing.

294
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,400
Like I said, I I think that this
is a competently made film like

295
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,079
I think the cinematography works
pretty well.

296
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:28,319
I I think that the the lighting
and the color of the film makes

297
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,120
sense within the world of what
Fincher is creating.

298
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,600
I think that for me, there's not
really any interesting

299
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,280
characters and like the whole
mystery of the film, like

300
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,600
whodunit, like they, there's no
question about it.

301
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,080
Like once they show you Lee,
there's no question that he's

302
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,400
the guy who did it even after
they get it wrong.

303
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:54,400
So it's just kind of boring to
watch them stumble around

304
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,280
throughout the whole film.
You said something a few minutes

305
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080
ago about how you have to give
these characters more than just

306
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,120
the obsession for the movie to
work.

307
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,280
And I'm wondering because you've
obviously hit on the theme of

308
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,480
the movie, which is like this
all consuming obsession and its

309
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,320
effect on people.
Like it's it's as much about the

310
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,400
killer and the killings as it is
about the toll it took on the

311
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,120
people that were investigating
it and kind of the futility of

312
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:22,720
that.
Like it's AI don't want to say

313
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,240
it's a downer of a movie, but I
think if you're trying to crack

314
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,360
the code of like, what's the
message here?

315
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,760
Fincher is really giving you a
story to which there is no

316
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,760
resolution.
And I'm and I'm wondering like

317
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,360
if he is trying to communicate
that the obsession is the point

318
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,240
of these characters and of this
movie, what's a more successful

319
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,160
way to portray that?
I don't.

320
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,440
I don't know if there's a more
successful way to portray it.

321
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,680
I'm just saying that it was very
boring.

322
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,680
Well, let's compare it to like
Vertigo then.

323
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,760
Like Vertigo is a movie about
obsession, you know what I mean?

324
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,080
Like, is it an obsession?
I think is like the core theme

325
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,080
of that movie too.
Now, there's other stuff going

326
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,320
on in the mechanics of the
movie, not to distract you from

327
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,480
the obsession, but to kind of
just keep the wheels of the

328
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,800
movie turning.
And I guess that's what I'm

329
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,640
asking.
Like, is there just not enough

330
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,520
other things going on to keep
them the wheels turning for you?

331
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,200
Or like, what about Vertigo and
its themes work better than this

332
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,560
movie's themes?
I mean, I, I think part of it is

333
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,280
just the fact that nobody ever
stops talking in this movie that

334
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:33,040
like the amount of information
that is dumped on you, the

335
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,800
audience.
Like when you see date after

336
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,160
date after date after date, it
forces you to check out as an

337
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,920
audience member.
It's like, oh, he doesn't care

338
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,760
about me, the audience member
anymore.

339
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,960
He's just trying to hurdle down
these train tracks as fast as he

340
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,000
can.
And I have no ability as a

341
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,800
audience member to keep up with
the information being provided

342
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,240
in a way that helps me make
meaning of what's going on in

343
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,760
the story.
Whereas Vertigo moves at a nice

344
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,800
slow pace so that you you the
audience member.

345
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:17,080
Are swept along in this
mysterious story that is being

346
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,920
crafted whereas Zodiac is just
like, here's some more

347
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,200
information kid, here's more
information here's more

348
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,480
information 47 years later
there's more information and

349
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,920
it's like I like I just lose
interest when it's just slamming

350
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,760
me over the head with a baseball
bat over and over with

351
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,240
information and names and
numbers and dates and people

352
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,120
and.
Yeah, I I think do you?

353
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,680
Want me to follow this?
I think that we have to get you,

354
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,640
and maybe we don't because it
sounds like this is just not a

355
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,080
genre that's gonna work for you.
But I was just thinking like, we

356
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,880
got to get you to watch more
investigative, like journalistic

357
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,880
movies like this, like All the
President's Men, like Spotlight,

358
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,640
'cause that's just, that's just
the genre, I think.

359
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,040
And I think that might be what
you're kind of butting up

360
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,760
against here a little.
But it also sounds like this is

361
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,640
the rare movie for you where the
faster pace of the movie is a

362
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,240
detriment to the film as opposed
to a slower pace.

363
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,640
Yeah, I I think that a faster
paced film shouldn't last two

364
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,640
hours and 37 minutes.
Like there's there's no change

365
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,200
in the pace either.
Like if, if I'm if I am speaking

366
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,520
and I never take a pause and I
always speak at this exact thing

367
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,720
over and over and over again.
And I never stopped my cadence

368
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,280
anything.
I just keep talking at the same

369
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,480
rate.
People lose interest.

370
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,800
Like you have to change the pace
at which you speak for people to

371
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,320
be interested in what you're
saying.

372
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,800
You go faster at times and
slower at times.

373
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:51,840
And Fincher just has this
monotone, like 70% fast.

374
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,400
Like, it's not like it's a
Terrence Malick film where

375
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,520
you're just like, seen, seen,
seen, boom, boom, boom, cut,

376
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,960
cut, cut.
Like, like, it's not like this

377
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:05,280
film is wildly fast-paced, but
the entire movie is like between

378
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,240
65 and 75% fast.
And there's no change in the

379
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,400
pace.
And so, yeah, I'm going to lose

380
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,000
interest.
All right, here's the thing,

381
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,680
Bob.
I came in thinking I would give

382
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,720
this like A7 7 1/2 and the more
I talk the more I'm like, Oh no,

383
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,640
I really, really didn't like
this.

384
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,640
Movie.
That's crazy to me, man.

385
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,960
Yeah.
So I'm going to be under the

386
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,040
operative assumption that your
reaction to everything in this

387
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040
film was it was bad until you
correct me.

388
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,880
So I want to talk about the
cast, but I also don't want to

389
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,640
hear you repeatedly say
everybody in the cast was bad.

390
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,680
So why don't we just throw it to
you and say who was good or who

391
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:54,840
surprised you in this cast?
I I was OK with Robert Downey

392
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,360
Junior.
Like I think he was fine.

393
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,760
I think he was himself.
And I like, at this point, I

394
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,120
don't know if I've ever seen a
movie where Robert Downey Junior

395
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:08,440
wasn't just Robert Downey
Junior.

396
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,040
Like, is that fair?
I mean, yeah, I've, I've seen a

397
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,480
couple, but I know that the ones
that we've watched, you

398
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,600
definitely have not.
Yeah, So I don't think he was

399
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,320
bad.
I don't think he was good.

400
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,200
I think he was himself and
wasn't like wildly interesting.

401
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,080
I liked Mark Ruffalo decently
well.

402
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:36,960
I think he, I think he does a
really good job of showing the

403
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:43,480
toll that obsession takes on a
person and the way that he tries

404
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,760
to shut the case out, move on,
try to be a healthy human being.

405
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,640
I like that was the only
character as written and as

406
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,480
portrayed that I thought had
like a healthy sense of

407
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,320
development and movement.
And, you know, he's willing to

408
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,720
entertain it, but only to a
certain point, you know, in the

409
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,280
years that followed the killings
way beyond the originals.

410
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,560
So I like, I, I think that
Ruffalo does a really good job

411
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:17,160
of, of showing how freaking hard
it would be to be the police

412
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,800
officer.
I, I think the moment when he

413
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,120
looks at Gyllenhaal and says,
like, you're a cartoonist, I'm a

414
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,960
police officer, this is my job.
This shouldn't be taking the

415
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,000
toll on you that it is on me.
Like great moment.

416
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,320
I think for me, first of all, I
have wanted you to be able to

417
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,000
articulate why you didn't like
this movie.

418
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,200
I freaking love this movie.
I think this movie is a is a

419
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,240
absolute yes on the classic
scale.

420
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,320
For me, I think this is
Fincher's best movie.

421
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,760
Like, I'm just going to put it
out there.

422
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,920
We don't have to investigate
that at all.

423
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,440
Like, it's fine.
I know we're at odds here.

424
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,800
I do feel like I need to say I
think this movie works perfectly

425
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,120
and I think part of the reason
it works perfectly is this cast.

426
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,240
And it's not just it's almost
like when you look at

427
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:11,440
championship teams in the NBA,
very rarely is it just like the

428
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,400
Oklahoma City Thunder had
Russell Westbrook and James

429
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,560
Harden and Kevin Durant at the
same time.

430
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,320
Yes, they did, but there's a
reason they didn't win the

431
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,040
championship.
Like their their bench didn't go

432
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,280
deep enough, you know what I
mean?

433
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,840
And I think on a movie like
this, it's all of the supporting

434
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,320
players, and not even just
supporting players, but like

435
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240
3rd, 4th tier players.
When you have, you know, Anthony

436
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,160
Edwards playing Toski's sidekick
and you have Philip Baker Hall

437
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,520
playing the guy that analyzes
the handwriting and you have

438
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,840
Brian Cox show up for one scene
as Melvin Belli, the guy that

439
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,440
they're calling in on the air
for.

440
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,760
It's just like everybody in that
zone is guys that I recognize

441
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,240
from other movies.
And it's like, oh that that's

442
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,680
awesome that they came and did
one day on a Fincher movie

443
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,000
'cause it makes everybody in the
movie that much better.

444
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,080
And for me, I think that the
unsung hero of the movie is John

445
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,280
Carroll Lynch as Arthur Lee
Allen, because we've seen him in

446
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,240
other movies.
Brad, he's a really good actor,

447
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,640
and I can't ever shake him as
the Zodiac Killer.

448
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,840
Now that I've seen him as the
Zodiac Killer, he's really

449
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,040
creepy in this movie and he does
a really good job.

450
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,040
Yeah, I I think he does like
almost too good of a job to the

451
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,840
point where you like, you know
that it's him the entire movie

452
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,200
once they show you him.
So like the the whole thrust of

453
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,400
the tension is gone.
But I'm with you that the scene

454
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,240
of him at the plants where you
know, wherever he works being

455
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:48,680
interviewed by Gyllenhaal, his
partner and I think the local

456
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:54,200
Molinax maybe like incredible
scene the.

457
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,360
Editing the way that they keep
cutting to the little like

458
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,480
insert shots of the watch and
everything else, the boots like

459
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,320
it's, it's so well done.
Yeah.

460
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,400
And so I, I don't have anything
else to say.

461
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,360
Bob, he, he, he does great.
He's a great performance.

462
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,520
All right, so you've covered
everyone in the cast that you

463
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,480
like now, right?
Which was basically Mark Ruffalo

464
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,200
was pretty good.
Yep, I liked Mark Ruffalo.

465
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,040
I would say beyond pretty good.
I think he was really solid.

466
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,880
Is that a good?
That's an upgrade.

467
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,000
We need to start reviewing
whiskeys like that man.

468
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,960
Yeah, really solid.
Brian Cox is Brian Cox, and he's

469
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,880
fine.
I don't understand.

470
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,960
I don't know if I just missed
something, but all of a sudden

471
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,120
he's in the movie and then all
of a sudden he's not.

472
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,920
And I don't know who.
Melvin it is I I don't know why

473
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,280
he's there, but hey, that is
that's a OK.

474
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,800
I I think my struggle is all of
the secondary characters in this

475
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320
movie are really solid.
But as you were talking about

476
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,360
the names, I don't I didn't
recognize almost any of the

477
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,680
secondary cast from anything
else.

478
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:12,160
I I recognize the Zodiac Killer,
whatever his name is, but other

479
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:18,720
than that I think I recognized
Jake or no, not Gyllenhaal's

480
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,320
wife.
Mark Ruffalo's wife is from

481
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,160
Parks and Rec.
June Diane Raphael.

482
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,080
Yeah.
Yep, Yep.

483
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,080
That's the that I recognize her.
You did it, man.

484
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,320
I did it.
All right, so God, this is a

485
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,760
fucking bummer.
You didn't like this movie.

486
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,200
I don't know where to go from
here.

487
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,200
Maybe it's time for us to go
drink some whiskey and then

488
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,640
we'll get into some fun stuff in
the back half of the episode.

489
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,440
What do you say?
Let's get to it, Bob.

490
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:47,840
I'm excited.
Woo.

491
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,280
All right, so today we are
checking out Rebel Small Batch

492
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,360
Reserve Bourbon.
Now our history and love for

493
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,240
Rebel Bourbon.
Is well documented.

494
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,720
Well documented, Bob.
Almost as well documented as

495
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,640
everything in this film.
Very much so when they go into

496
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,200
Vallejo and he he gives them the
classic, all of these files,

497
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,080
right, It's like.
But no pens.

498
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,760
Yeah, yeah.
No pens, Bob.

499
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,680
No, no pens.
Only whiskey.

500
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,560
All right, so small batch
reserve is the latest release or

501
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,240
one of the latest releases in
the Rebel line from Lux Row.

502
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,680
We love Lux Row, we love Rebel.
They used to source it, they

503
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,640
make it in house now.
This is a small batch version

504
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,760
that is 110 proof.
So it's a slight bump up from

505
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,520
the Rebel 100 that Brad and I
love very much MSRP is around

506
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,840
$30.
You might you might be charged a

507
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,520
little bit more depending on
where you live.

508
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,920
So this is still kind of in that
low mid range bourbon.

509
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,000
Like I wouldn't call this a
budget bourbon anymore, but it's

510
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,680
still cheaper than like a bottle
of Elijah Craig, which is kind

511
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,600
of where I start pricing mid
range bourbons.

512
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,760
So very affordable, Brad, I'm
very excited to get into it.

513
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,880
It's a non age stated bourbon.
We don't know the mash bill,

514
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,240
wink, wink.
Let's dive in, man.

515
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,720
Yeah, When I got into the nose
on this, it had some really nice

516
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,160
cherry tart notes.
It's a little bit grain forward

517
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,400
and I there's a little bit of
spiciness here, some cinnamon

518
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,040
notes that I thought were
interesting.

519
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,600
I think it's a decent nose.
I'm going to give it a 7 1/2.

520
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,600
Yeah, I'm a little bit lower
than you.

521
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,880
This was like, fine, but I think
it's probably right in line with

522
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,440
a Rebel 100 in terms of what
you're getting on the nose.

523
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,200
Pretty simple, but I can't shake
the fact that it's $10 more

524
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,120
expensive.
It had a little bit of peanut

525
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,040
butter and then there was like a
slight kind of off dill pickle

526
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,520
note, which we've gotten dill on
Ryze before, but this is a

527
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,960
weeded bourbon, so you really
wouldn't expect to have dill on

528
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,480
anything here.
It threw me for a loop and I

529
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,280
didn't like it that much.
And so I, I dinged this for that

530
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,600
note all the way down to a 7 out
of 10.

531
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080
When it comes to the taste, I
liked it a lot.

532
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,440
It was really viscous, super
dark in terms of like the fruit

533
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,480
that it was bringing up on my,
you know, on my palate, lots of

534
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,120
chocolate notes for me,
definitely not as sweet as other

535
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,960
Rebels were.
And that again, it threw me for

536
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,440
a loop because we've drank
enough Rebel that I can tell

537
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,240
what the flavor wheelhouse of
Rebel is.

538
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,160
Now, this wasn't that dark stone
fruit, really heavy kind of dark

539
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,080
notes.
I gave it a 7 again, Brad.

540
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,280
Yeah, I'm in a 7 1/2 on the
flavor.

541
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,680
I I think that the palate has
some really nice mixture of like

542
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,920
a cinnamony spice with the
classic cherry and it, you're

543
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,480
right, it gets into like a
little bit of a cacao dark

544
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,240
chocolate kind of vibe.
I like, I I'm not crazy about

545
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,400
it.
I think it's pretty good though,

546
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,480
I think.
I think the finish drops off a

547
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,440
little bit for me.
It gets oaky and and much more

548
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,240
grainy.
That grain finally starts to

549
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,800
come through a little stronger
than I'd like.

550
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,960
There's a little bit of a black
pepper.

551
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,720
The vanilla.
There's like hints of vanilla

552
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,880
for me, which I didn't get quite
as much on the nose and the

553
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,480
palate. 7 out of 10 on the
finish. 7 as well.

554
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,760
There's a just a little pop of
cinnamon.

555
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,640
I did get quite a bit of ethanol
and usually the ethanol is

556
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,240
present like on the front of the
pallet or the mid pallet it it

557
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,640
burned quite a bit and you could
feel the 110 proof here.

558
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,960
After that, the notes that were
left behind were just really,

559
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,280
really dark red wine.
And I, you know, again, I didn't

560
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,080
take good enough notes to
pinpoint exactly what kind of

561
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,720
wine it brought up.
You know, whatever kind of wine

562
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,160
you associate with the darkest
red wine, go for it.

563
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,320
So that's where I'm at on this
one.

564
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,240
It's a 7 out of 10 on the
finish.

565
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,080
And in terms of overall balance,
all I wrote down was it's good.

566
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,120
But this is far from my favorite
in the rebel line.

567
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,040
I gave it a 7 out of 10 again,
Brad.

568
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,160
So I was sevens pretty much
across the board here on our

569
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600
first four categories.
Yeah, I'm I'm not far off from

570
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,000
you.
I give it a 7 on balance as

571
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,080
well.
I think that there's some

572
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,720
interesting things going on
here, but it's not standing out

573
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,760
enough to really make me love
this whiskey.

574
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,440
Now, I will say when you and I
first tried this whiskey, which

575
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,960
was down at the Kentucky Bourbon
Festival about two months ago

576
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,560
now, we took note that MSRP was
$45.

577
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,200
And I'm looking online and I
don't see it that high anywhere.

578
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,600
So I don't know if we just maybe
they're raising the price and it

579
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,720
hasn't really taken effect yet.
I don't know.

580
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,960
At $45.00, I was like, this is a
7 at best.

581
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,960
I will say at $30, this is a
much better value than I had

582
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,880
originally taken note of.
So I'm going to go ahead and up

583
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,840
it to, I'll say 7 1/2 out of 10.
I was going to go up to an 8,

584
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,600
but I think it's just marginally
better than that at a 7 1/2.

585
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,400
Yeah, if you're getting this
around the $35 mark, I'll give

586
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,920
it a 7 1/2 as well.
I think, Bob, I think this might

587
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,679
be the first time we've ever had
every single score be 7 or 7 1/2

588
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:22,840
on a product.
I.

589
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,679
Mean this is like the
quintessential average whiskey.

590
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,520
See, that's funny because I
always think of 7 1/2 as like

591
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,360
when you I used to look at the
movie reviews in the newspaper

592
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,719
and they were on a four-star
scale.

593
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,480
So three stars was the like, OK,
like this is worth my while.

594
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,040
Two stars is average.
That's 5 out of 10.

595
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,400
And like, so I always think
like, oh, this is like a 7 1/2

596
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,080
whiskey.
It's the three star movie.

597
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,080
It's worth the money, it's worth
your time.

598
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,360
You're not going to regret it,
but it's also not going to be

599
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,880
like a life changing, memorable
experience.

600
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:55,280
And I kind of think of it that
way.

601
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,400
I wouldn't call it average.
I think it's definitely above

602
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,760
average, but it's the three star
movie of the Rebel lineup.

603
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,720
See your Your definition of
average is off though, because

604
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:10,840
the the grading scale you think
of is like 99 to 100 is an A&A

605
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,600
minus, so.
I will have you know, I had

606
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,560
multiple people contact me after
that episode came out and tell

607
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,120
me like I was on that scale all
the way till high school or my

608
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,560
high school used that scale.
Like once again, Brad G thinks

609
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,960
that his life experience is
everyone's life experience.

610
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,400
I Bob, I am 100% sure that the
common experience is the 10

611
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,640
point scale I like.
I have so little doubt that that

612
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,880
has been the reality for most
people.

613
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:52,240
Like whatever the off scale is,
I'm telling you 75 or a 7.5 is

614
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,120
an average grade because that's
AC.

615
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,360
All right, so Brad thinks it's a
sea whiskey.

616
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,000
I think it's like a bee whiskey.
That's totally fine.

617
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,480
What is your actual score?
We're arguing about the smallest

618
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:09,960
stuff today. 36.5. 36.5 So we're
coming out to an average of a 36

619
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,920
out of 50 or a 72 out of 100.
It has just cleared the bar at

620
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,360
35 where we start recommending
to try a pour or to buy a

621
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,000
bottle.
I think I would do both, but

622
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520
it's like a soft recommend
because IA pour of this is only

623
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,520
going to cost you like 6 bucks.
So you want to try it.

624
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,080
It's worth 6 bucks to try.
If you want to buy a bottle,

625
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,000
it's worth $30 to just get a
bottle.

626
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,360
I just don't think that it is as
good of a value, or maybe as

627
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,080
good of a bourbon as Rebel 100.
I I think I'd agree with that.

628
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,200
The Rebel 100 still stands out.
I I might, yeah, I might call it

629
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,400
a better whiskey.
Well, there you go all right

630
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,520
folks, so it's a soft recommend
on Rebel small batch.

631
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,480
It is a firm recommendation once
again on Rebel 100.

632
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,880
Go find it, go buy it Rebel, we
love you.

633
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,160
We're going to try some more of
your product again next week.

634
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,400
Brad, what do you say we get
back into this love fest we have

635
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,800
going on today with the movie
Zodiac?

636
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:12,560
Let's get to it.
All right, everybody.

637
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,000
That was Rebel Small Batch a
whiskey that we were in

638
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,440
agreement on that it's decidedly
decent.

639
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,560
And we're basically in agreement
that 2 Facts and a Falsehood is

640
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,120
the greatest segment that any
podcast has ever come up with.

641
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,400
Woo.
Hoo.

642
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,200
Brad is going to try to stump
your ball.

643
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,480
All right.
And what is wrong?

644
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,800
2 facts and a falsehood. 2 Facts
and a Falsehood is the part of

645
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,480
the show where Brad presents me
with three items as fact about

646
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,800
the making of this movie, one of
which is a complete lie.

647
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,200
Brad, I'm excited to see what
you came up with today.

648
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,120
I did do more research than
normal today 'cause I wanted to

649
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,640
talk about all the cool things I
like about this movie.

650
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,880
I have I realized very quickly I
will get to mention very little

651
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,560
of them, but hopefully it will
come in Andy at 2 facts and a

652
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,600
falsehood.
I am writing A1 game win streak,

653
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,280
but I think I'm six and one
overall on the season.

654
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,960
So let's see how I do today.
Brad hit me with those two facts

655
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,880
and a falsehood.
Fact number one In one of the

656
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,120
Zodiacs letters he muses on who
would portray him in a film

657
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,360
about him.
In this film he is portrayed by

658
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,680
three separate actors and in any
shot featuring the Zodiac the

659
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,960
actors faces are always out of
focus or obscured, partially so

660
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,360
that the Zodiac killer himself
would not be portrayed by a

661
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,280
visible or famous actor.
Fact #2 Jake Gyllenhaal grew up

662
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,240
with a fascination of the Zodiac
killings, as his parents lived

663
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:48,120
in California when they occurred
and had told their children all

664
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,480
about it when the book came out
in 1989.

665
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,760
Fact #3 The shooting script for
the film was 200 pages long, and

666
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,920
in order to prevent any problems
with a link that such a long

667
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,240
script might cause, director
David Fincher decided to ask his

668
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:10,720
cast members to speak faster.
OK, I think #1 is like true just

669
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:15,040
because I looked at the cast
list and there's like 1 actor is

670
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,840
listed as like Zodiac one and
two, one is listed as Zodiac 3

671
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,040
and 1 is listed as Zodiac four
or something like that.

672
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,400
So I think that's true.
They they wanted it to be kind

673
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,280
of this, everyone reminded you
of each other.

674
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,200
But you can project those
rememberings onto somebody like

675
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,840
a John Carroll Lynch later in
the movie.

676
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,440
So I think 1 is true. 2 sounds
true to me as well.

677
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,160
I'm gravitating towards 3
because I know that Fincher had

678
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,440
final cut on this movie and this
might be a good place to really

679
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,920
briefly mention this.
Brad, this movie was intended to

680
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,320
be released at the end of O 6
for Oscar consideration.

681
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,760
Fincher turned in a cut of the
movie that was three hours and 8

682
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,360
minutes long.
And then Paramount was like you,

683
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,360
you got to cut it down.
But he had final cut and so he

684
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,720
said OK, it's probably too long,
let me cut some stuff out.

685
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,120
He landed at 2 hours and 40 ish
minutes and then said like

686
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,200
that's it I'm not making another
cut put it out.

687
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,640
And Paramount was like, cool,
we'll dump it in February or

688
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,920
whatever.
So it got it got no love from

689
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,800
Paramount, partially resulting
in the fact that it didn't do

690
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,520
very well at the box office.
And so anyway, all that to say,

691
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,720
I'm gravitating towards 3 is the
falsehood.

692
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,560
Now, he may have told his actors
to speak longer or to speak

693
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,960
faster, but I also don't think
he cared that much about the

694
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,600
length of the movie 'cause he
turned in a three hour cut.

695
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,600
So my gut says #3 I may be
wrong, but I'm going to roll

696
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,360
with it.
Brad #3 is the falsehood.

697
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:51,960
Bob #3 is not the falsehood.
Wow. #2 was our falsehood today.

698
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,160
OK, is there any smidgen of
truth in #2?

699
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560
I 100% made that up.
Nice dude.

700
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,880
Yeah, I did.
I I I guess I don't know if this

701
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,960
is true or not.
I looked up where Jake

702
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,720
Gyllenhaal is from and seeing
that he was from Los Angeles,

703
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:15,840
CA, I assumed that his parents
lived there in the 60s and 70s

704
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,120
since his dad is a screenwriter.
So maybe it's true that they

705
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,280
lived there, but other than that
it it basically was 100% made.

706
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,400
Up if we ever get famous enough
that we can start going back

707
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,040
through Brad's made-up things
and asking the people involved

708
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,240
if they actually happened.
I want I I want retroactive

709
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:39,760
points because like if there's a
serial killer around you, you're

710
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,240
going to be like, hey, mom and
dad, tell me about this thing

711
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:44,080
that you grew up with and
they're probably going to tell

712
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,000
you about it.
So it it still seems plausible.

713
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,840
You write it down when we
interview Jake Gyllenhaal

714
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,680
someday, you can ask him if his
parents ever talked about the

715
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,920
Zodiac Killer.
That's the first question of the

716
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,160
interview.
There's no like, warming him up,

717
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:04,000
getting on his good side, no.
Now I will say I changed the

718
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,240
date that the book came out
because the book came out in

719
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:11,160
1986 and Gyllenhaal was in born
in 1980.

720
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,040
And I was like, well, if, if Bob
knew that Gyllenhaal was born in

721
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,600
like 80, then he's probably not
going to think that the parents

722
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,160
talked to him about it when he
was 6.

723
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,520
There you go.
And so in the first eight weeks

724
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,920
of our season here, Brad, I
think this is episode #8 I am

725
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,840
6:00 and 2:00.
Yeah, you're killing it.

726
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,440
Now I will also say just like
the Zodiac, 6:00 and 2:00 is a

727
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,520
75%.
So apparently according to you I

728
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:44,760
am just doing average at.
Apparent to the American grading

729
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,960
system, you have a C.
Because.

730
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:53,240
If you had an 8 question test
and you got 6 right, that's a

731
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:57,040
75% Bob.
So I would see your big red pen

732
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,720
at the top that said see.
And then also the comment.

733
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,120
You're killing it just to
confuse me.

734
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:03,760
Yep.
Awesome.

735
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,280
All right, man, let's get back
into talking about the movie a

736
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,960
little bit.
And I do want to talk about

737
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,680
Fincher's craft because this is,
I think there's only a few

738
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,560
moments in the movie where
Fincher is really showing off

739
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,360
with the camera.
There's a kind of very obviously

740
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,400
CGI assisted shot where you're
tracking a taxi cab around

741
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,720
multiple corners from above.
It's, you know, when the guy

742
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,160
gets killed in the cab.
And that's a very, like, look at

743
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,520
the fun, sharp angles I can take
with a camera.

744
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,200
But for the most part, I'm more
impressed at Fincher's restraint

745
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,360
with the camera in this movie.
It's still very precise, but I

746
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,920
don't think there's as much
showing off with the camera as

747
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,960
there was in a movie like The
Social Network.

748
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,640
And correct me if I'm wrong,
this is our third Fincher movie,

749
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,400
right?
We did Fight Club and Social

750
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,680
Network and now this one.
Yes, OK.

751
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,760
Yeah, I don't think we've done
any others.

752
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:58,320
So talk to me a little bit,
Brad, about like the

753
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,760
Fincheriness of this movie.
Does it seem like it belongs in

754
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,760
his catalogue?
How is it different in terms of

755
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,520
the directorial flourishes from
the other ones we've watched?

756
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,440
I mean the The Social Network
feels like the outlier of those

757
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,200
three films.
This one definitely has a a

758
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,040
darkened color palette I guess
I'd say.

759
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,640
Like if you put a random still
from those 3 movies in front of

760
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:35,440
me, like chances are that this
film and Fight Club are going to

761
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,800
look very similar in my mind.
Whereas Social Network has much

762
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,200
less of a firm aesthetic.
It's more of just like, hey,

763
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,160
we're at Harvard and we're in,
you know, California and it, it

764
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,880
doesn't feel like it's as
important to the film.

765
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,040
Whereas this film, it's like,
yeah, we're going to shoot this

766
00:44:54,040 --> 00:45:00,680
as a very dark green, grey,
brown color palette that seems

767
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,640
similar to Fight Club.
I do think that the one shot

768
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,440
that made a ton of sense to me
that I was curious why he didn't

769
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,040
do it more often throughout the
film.

770
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:18,200
Because most of the movie he
just puts up a new date at the

771
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,200
bottom of the screen.
And that's that's the new date.

772
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,920
We've moved forward.
And sometimes he says, you know,

773
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,640
four years later, three months
later, two days later, the best

774
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,840
way of communicating that was
when he did the shot of the

775
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,960
building, the the skyscraper
being the timelapse incredible.

776
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,040
It's like, oh, I know in general
how long it would take to do

777
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,680
that.
It's probably a year or two

778
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,120
later.
That's incredible.

779
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,080
I like, loved that shot very
much.

780
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,640
So didn't like the computer
assisted taxi cab shot.

781
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,320
It looked very fake to me.
Yeah, well, that's also a

782
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,120
function of this being 17 years
old now, you know, which is

783
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,480
crazy because I think that this
movie didn't start catching on

784
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,600
with the audience that doesn't
appreciate it until a few years

785
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,520
after the fact because it wasn't
like it got nominated for zero

786
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,840
Academy Awards, which to me is
wild to you is probably like,

787
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,120
yes, you are justified, Academy.
Makes a lot of sense, this.

788
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,560
Is a very stacked year for
movies.

789
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,080
We've talked about 2007 as
potentially the best year in the

790
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,120
21st century for movies.
So it gets shut out of the

791
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,960
Oscars and it didn't make any
money.

792
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,040
And I think people slowly
started to reclaim it.

793
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,200
And so for me, I think about
Zodiac and I'm like, Oh yeah,

794
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,800
that movie's from like 2011,
2012, 2015.

795
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,640
I I just think of it as a more
recent movie.

796
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,560
And it's getting close to its
20th anniversary here in a

797
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,240
couple years.
So there are certain things

798
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:45,840
about the film that I'm like, Oh
yeah.

799
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,480
Like I can tell where Fincher
used some CGI fireworks on 4th

800
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,400
of July or whatever it might be.
And they look a little cheesy

801
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,720
now.
So I have to, I have to agree

802
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,920
with that.
I wanted to talk about the

803
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,080
Fincheriness of the movie
though, because just a couple

804
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:06,520
weeks ago we watched Parasite, a
movie that I made mention of and

805
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,720
said Hong Joon Ho is doing a
David Fincher impression in

806
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,720
terms of like the way he's using
the camera in this movie, the

807
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,680
way that it's like always
mounted on a tripod, that

808
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,360
there's a lot of like pans and
they're very precise movements

809
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,400
of the camera.
Now that you've like watched

810
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:28,680
Zodiac as just a general Fincher
refresher, do you see it in

811
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:35,040
Parasite I?
Don't know if I do, partially

812
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,920
because they're like there's two
hours and 37 minutes worth of

813
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:47,600
camera shots that I I don't know
if I can pinpoint any specific

814
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,040
way that he used the camera.
Whereas, like, to me, Parasite

815
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,520
stands out as one of the best
uses of a camera that I've ever

816
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,960
seen in a movie.
Like it's so impersonal and it

817
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,360
gives you such a detached view
of what's going on.

818
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,680
I don't like, I just don't know
if I've seen that done in many

819
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,040
other films.
And I I certainly wouldn't say

820
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,080
that that's true about Fincher
here.

821
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,280
I looking back as best as I can
through the movie, I can't think

822
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,680
of anything about this film that
makes the camera work stand out

823
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,560
to me.
And I'm not saying that like

824
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,760
negatively, like there's nothing
negative about the camera work.

825
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,320
I don't know if there's also
anything that makes me go wow,

826
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,000
what an incredible film to study
camera work on.

827
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,000
The more I watched this movie,
the more I kind of kicked myself

828
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,840
that we placed it so early in
the season and we kind of put it

829
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,000
around Halloween time and we got
pushed back a couple weeks.

830
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,440
So like now it's now it's our
Thanksgiving movie.

831
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:54,840
It gets spread but but I really
think we should have watched a

832
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,920
movie like Spotlight 1st.
And I like Spotlight.

833
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,200
I think it's a competently made
movie, but like when you look at

834
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,560
the look of that film, it's very
flat.

835
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,520
Like there's just not much of A
palette there.

836
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,040
They don't do a great job with
the lighting of that film and

837
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,840
it's kind of intentionally that
way 'cause it's like it takes

838
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,960
big and it takes place in a big
fluorescent lit office building.

839
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,080
This movie, I just think there's
such a great depth with the

840
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:19,720
shadows and the way they're
playing with light and

841
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,880
everything else.
But I, I do want to go back to

842
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,120
the Bong Joon Ho thing for a
minute because I really do see

843
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,080
it.
I see that so much Fincher in

844
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,920
that movie, you know, way more
than in a movie like

845
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,680
Snowpiercer.
I just think that he's like

846
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,160
really playing in the Fincher
sandbox here.

847
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,680
And I think it's also bolstered
a little bit by the fact that in

848
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,040
the Sight and Sound poll that
just came out a couple years

849
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,680
ago, and in the 2012 version of
the Sight and Sound poll, Bong

850
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,440
Joon Ho listed Zodiac as one of
the 10 best films ever made.

851
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,760
That was like one one of his
picks.

852
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,680
So I know for a fact this is
like got to be an influence on

853
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,880
the guy or he wouldn't be
putting it in his top 10 there.

854
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,440
I watched a great video essay
right before we hopped on where

855
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,200
the the guy that made the video
was comparing this movie with

856
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,040
another Bong Joon Ho movie
called Memories of Murder.

857
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,240
And I think the Fincher has just
really kind of gotten his hooks

858
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:15,720
into Bong Joon Ho.
And it's really cool to see how

859
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,960
the same themes and even
sometimes the same way of using

860
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,640
the camera can be applied in a
Fincher movie and then half a

861
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,320
world away in a Korean movie.
I just, I thought it was a cool

862
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,080
little pairing.
It's not back-to-back weeks, but

863
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,600
having Parasite followed by a
Fincher movie and just kind of

864
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,080
examining the darkness that's in
the human psyche the way both of

865
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,200
those guys do, I thought it was
worth worth noting I.

866
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,320
Was going to say, do you think
that that is like Fincher's

867
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,080
legacy as a film maker is that
he's just a really dark

868
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,000
director?
I think he's AI think he's a

869
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,440
pervert like and and and like, I
mean that as positively as I

870
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,240
can.
But like you, you have you

871
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:02,920
accused me of being hot take.
I think that Jake Gyllenhaal

872
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,480
isn't a good actor in this film.
And then you just come out and

873
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,840
call David Fincher a pervert.
I think that he really likes in

874
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,120
this video essay I was watching,
he talked about the way he used

875
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,720
the camera and he he said that
he really likes an objective

876
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:18,360
camera kind of to what you were
saying.

877
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,400
He said the way that I moved the
camera.

878
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:25,240
I want it to feel like whatever
is happening is doomed to

879
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:27,960
happen.
And I really liked that because

880
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,520
it's not just the way the camera
kind of creeps around sometimes.

881
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,160
It could be very precise, but
that precision feels like

882
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,920
mechanical sometimes, and it
feels inhuman.

883
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,880
And I think because of that,
like, Fincher really likes being

884
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,160
making you as an audience
member, this helpless observer

885
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,680
of wherever he's about to go.
And he goes to some really sick

886
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,040
psychological places in most of
his movies.

887
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,960
He loves plumbing the depths of
twisted stories.

888
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,040
You don't go into a Fincher
movie and be like, you know,

889
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,000
you're not going to get like
step brothers, you know what I

890
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,120
mean?
Like, it's just it's never going

891
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,160
to happen.
That's what he's attracted to

892
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,040
and it's, I think, more than any
other filmmaker.

893
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,120
Yes, I see Kubrick there.
I see a lot of Hitchcock in

894
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,280
Fincher in the way that he is
really fascinated and kind of

895
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,800
tickled by really dirty things,
whether that's violence, whether

896
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,720
that's murder or torture or sex,
whatever it might be.

897
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,600
He's he's voyeuristic in the
same way that Hitchcock was, and

898
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,720
I think that the way he uses the
camera shows that.

899
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,920
I think that's probably a fair
take.

900
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,120
I haven't seen enough Fincher to
really dive into it, mostly

901
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,680
because I like it.
Surprises me that The Social

902
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,880
Network is a Fincher film.
Like how long has it been since

903
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,880
you watched that one?
Whatever, we watched it for the

904
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,160
podcast.
So like 3 or 4 years now

905
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,440
probably.
Yeah, OK, maybe I feel like it's

906
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,280
more recent than that, but you
know how fast time goes.

907
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,800
I I think the thing for me with
a director who focuses on

908
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:09,680
hopeless dark themes, I I don't
see the importance of making

909
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:14,280
movies about darkness that don't
have any point like that.

910
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:19,480
They're just doesn't seem to me
to be an importance of saying,

911
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:26,720
hey, bad things happen without
pointing towards and humans are

912
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:30,800
courageous in the face of it or
that you know, they, they will

913
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,200
always find the light eventually
or, you know, find some sort of

914
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:40,760
message that is redemptive.
I guess for me, when I look at

915
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,040
the world I live in, I don't
need super dark reminders of the

916
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,960
brokenness of the world.
I I see that in everyday life.

917
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,480
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm not saying that Fincher

918
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,080
is my favorite film maker by any
stretch.

919
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,240
I I don't really, I don't get
the perverse joy of watching

920
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:01,640
these sick things happen the way
a lot of Fincher fans do.

921
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,840
And it's kind of my beef.
We talked about this before with

922
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,760
the Coen brothers too, like
Hurley Cohen's they'll make a

923
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,600
movie about like the weird
chaotic nature of life, you

924
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:13,920
know, like a movie that you
hated.

925
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,880
Like Raising Arizona is still
like a light hearted examination

926
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,440
of like the weird way chaos
happens or O brother, where art

927
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,680
thou.
You know, they take a turn in

928
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,880
the mid 2000s and now it's just
like nothing has a point.

929
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,200
Everything's nihilistic and
their response to it is kind of

930
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,200
just a shrug into the wind.
Fincher's not really a shrug guy

931
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,720
as much as he's just like, the
world is fucked up.

932
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:39,360
Check this out.
You know what I mean?

933
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,760
And, and I don't like either one
of those things.

934
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,440
I, I, I appreciate Fincher's
craft and I like this movie more

935
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,840
than most other Fincher movies
because I don't feel him like,

936
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,920
you know, getting his rocks off
portraying stuff in this movie.

937
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,080
I think it's more just like it's
a movie about what dedication

938
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,760
looks like and what precision is
and how your your efforts might

939
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,640
be futile in a world that
doesn't care.

940
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,280
And like, I think it's more
affecting for me than a lot of

941
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,680
his other stuff.
Yeah, and it it kind of ends in

942
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,560
a place where we all know who
the killer is without know who

943
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,960
knowing who the killer is.
And I think that the fact that

944
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:31,320
he had to follow real life
events kind of gives it a light

945
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,960
that he might not have in a lot
of his other films.

946
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,080
I think it's a good place for us
to get into our last segment of

947
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,720
the day, Brad, and it's a
segment that we call Let's Make

948
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,520
It a Double presented by
Blackwood Distilling Co.

949
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:47,000
We're near the end of the
episodes of Things, listening to

950
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,880
the film and Whiskey Show.
Let's have another film with

951
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:51,320
this one, even if it's
struggling.

952
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:52,680
It's the final segment of the
day.

953
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,560
Now let's make it a double.
Let's Make It a Double is the

954
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,720
part of the show where we pick a
movie to pair.

955
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,440
Pair up with this one to make
the perfect double feature.

956
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,400
Brad, I'll let you go first,
man.

957
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,880
I'm interested to see if you're
going to try to pair this with

958
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,560
something that you like better,
or if you're just going to roll

959
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,240
with let's just make it a double
of two movies I don't like.

960
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,880
I would say I could go with the
Mark Ruffalo of it all and go

961
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,600
with Eternal Sunshine.
There you go.

962
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,560
But I'm not going to do that.
I am going to pair it with a

963
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,160
movie I did like a lot that is
also a procedural drama that I

964
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,120
think freaking knocks it out of
the park.

965
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,360
I'm going to go with 1991's The
Silence of the Lambs.

966
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,640
The further we've gotten from
watching that movie, The more I

967
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,480
am very comfortable in thinking
that that is a good, not great

968
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:43,760
movie, and equally surprised at
how much that movie has affected

969
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,960
you.
Like one of your very first

970
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,480
Blu-ray purchases, a movie that
you've mentioned many times, and

971
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,440
have you returned to it since
watching it?

972
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,360
Bread.
I haven't, it's been on my list

973
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,600
of like these are there's like
maybe 10 to 15 movies from the

974
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:03,120
podcast history that the, the
vault that we have accumulated

975
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,040
that I really want to get back
to, but I, I have not found the

976
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,880
time yet.
I'm trying to decide what I want

977
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,840
to pair this with.
I think All the President's Men

978
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,040
is a good journalistic movie to
pair it with.

979
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,840
I think you could look at a
movie I've I've brought up JFKA

980
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,400
couple times.
I think that was also an

981
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,640
influence in terms of every
movie where a character amasses

982
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,120
a lot of information and then
reveals it all in one big

983
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,400
explosive scene at the end,
takes its cues from JFK.

984
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,400
So you could do that.
I think I will pair it with

985
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,840
Spotlight, which we're getting
to later this season.

986
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,600
And I now have a mission of like
half that episode is going to be

987
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,120
how is this better or worse than
Zodiac, Brad, when we get to

988
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,560
that?
So we will be making it a

989
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,200
double, a very long double, but
we'll get to that later in the

990
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,480
season.
So for Brad, it is Silence of

991
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,840
the Lambs.
For me, it is Spotlight.

992
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,560
And that was brought to you by
Blackwood Distilling Co.

993
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,360
No matter what movie you pick to
pair up with this, you can

994
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,280
always make it a double with
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995
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,560
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996
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,960
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997
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,200
whiskey and buy a bottle of
Blackwood, you get 5% off, which

998
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,160
is a fantastic deal.
Brad, because Blackwood's a

999
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,840
luxury whiskey.
It is worth every single dollar,

1000
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,080
but you'll get 5% off with our
code film whiskey with an E at

1001
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,080
checkout.
Brad.

1002
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,000
Let's get into some final scores
here.

1003
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,560
I'll, I'll just without much
comment.

1004
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,440
I don't think it's a 10.
I do think it's a 9.5.

1005
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,120
It's my favorite Fincher movie.
I think it's a freaking classic.

1006
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:46,040
9 1/2 out of 10 for me.
Man, you and the Last Jedi in

1007
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:50,520
nine and a halfs.
I it is forever tarnished, Bob,

1008
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:56,480
forever tarnished.
I think that I walked away from

1009
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,240
this movie thinking, eh, boring.
Well, made 7 out of 10.

1010
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,800
I I've talked myself down, Bob,
I think this is a 6 1/2.

1011
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,000
Wow.
Well, that lands us at an

1012
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,120
average of an 8 out of 10, which
is kind of exactly where this

1013
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,400
lands on letterbox instead of
four point O out of five S, 8

1014
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,400
out of 10.
Still a very good average for a

1015
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,160
movie.
It sounds like this is a

1016
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,920
decisive no for you.
The classic thing?

1017
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,720
Yeah, I know.
This is not even, not even

1018
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,400
close.
May maybe the furthest from

1019
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,960
being a modern classic.
I was going to say this is your

1020
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,560
lowest score of the season so
far.

1021
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,800
Yeah.
So is this a worse movie than

1022
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,520
Ford V Ferrari and The Help?
Yes.

1023
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,640
That's crazy.
You're you are wrong.

1024
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,240
That's all there to do it.
All right, so it's an 8 from us,

1025
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:50,480
but we want to know what you
think.

1026
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,160
You can find us on any one of
our social media channels.

1027
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,040
Who is right and who is wrong
here?

1028
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,800
Tell us on Facebook, Twitter,
Instagram, Tiktok or YouTube at

1029
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,640
Film Whiskey.
Or join the conversation on our

1030
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,240
Discord server.
You can find a link to our

1031
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,680
server at the end of every
single one of our show notes.

1032
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,680
Next week we are changing up our
programming just a little bit.

1033
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,080
As you know, each year we do a
special Thanksgiving episode

1034
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,440
called Hanksgiving.
Instead of releasing that

1035
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,760
episode on Thanksgiving, we're
we're going to put it out on

1036
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,720
Tuesday like a regular episode.
So we'll be doing our Hanks

1037
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:28,760
Giving episode on his 2013 I
think modern classic Captain

1038
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,480
Phillips and Brad gets to look
at me and say I'm the captain

1039
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,760
now.
I say you're already declaring

1040
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:37,640
it a modern classic.
I think so.

1041
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,600
It's one of his best
performances of the century for

1042
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:40,600
sure.
OK.

1043
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:42,680
Well, I'm really excited to get
into it, Bob.

1044
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,280
Is that a first time watch for
you?

1045
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,880
It is wow.
OK, so join us next week for

1046
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,600
Captain Phillips, but until
then, I'm Bob Book.

1047
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,640
I'm Brad G.
And we'll see you next time.